Badass Versus Thread

[Deathhappens]

isnt about Hector as a character
it is about you being shallow and biased in your judgement

Everyone has their bias and I have mine, but LOL at the shallow accusation. Not like there's much to actually delve into, is there.

which is fine and all, its up to you how you want to behave in looking at a character
but when you put it out on a public forum and it literally is different from the fact, it just sounds dumb.

We aren't debating the facts, the facts are there for anyone who's played the game to that point. We're debating our interpretations of these facts.

If you haven't even realised what the discussion is all about, maybe you're the one who needs to rethink his stance here.

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I just told you instances of his redeeming qualities and you turn a blind eye.

Hector then was an enemy, not as an ally. You're probably seeing stuff Achilles saw in him while they were enemies.

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Not to be rude, but I'm starting to doubt that you've seen his profile or his My Room dialogue, since its all there.

Not to be rude, but go back and re-read the whole discussion from the start.

[Zurvan]

Not to be rude, but if you two are going to continue this discussion at least keep it about the character

I dont see this going any better after another 20 posts though, so agreeing to disagree is also an option, or PMing

[castor212]

when you only look at half of the fact of the character and pretend its all of it and turn a blind eye on the other half

in perfect honesty it sounds p shallow to me

[Deathhappens]

when you only look at half of the fact of the character and pretend its all of it and turn a blind eye on the other half

in perfect honesty it sounds p shallow to me

You're welcome to count with me the sum total of his lines in the game, how many of them portray him as an underhanded, can't-be-assed, "old man", and how many portray him as something resembling the Hector of legend. That way we can resolve this with "facts".

[castor212]

If you haven't even realised what the discussion is all about

the discussion begins from me questioning your exaggerated opinion

it is an exaggeration of a character
and which isnt even true

thats about it. i dun really care of your discussion with other people, i only care about my point original point that started the discussion

which is that your exaggeration of the character does not encapsulate the whole character, and only see the surface value of it, hence im calling it shallow.
and that your exaggeration overblows the parts that you dont like about this character, hence i find it laughable

tl;dr i have no intention to comment on how you like/dislike a character
i simply find your view on Hector shallow because some parts, you turn a blind eye on

[fire_mountain_30]

Nah. We saw a lot more than that in the game.
We see more than just "coward" "runs away" "talk bullshit" in Okeanos, you see more than that in his interlude, you see more than that in his bond CE.
DUnno how you play FGO, but so far the stuffs youve been saying are all nothing but the surface stuffs.



I dont care about this, this is not my point of argument
what i care is your "Hector can only run away or talk bullshit" is factually wrong and a shallow exaggeration

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this is not what the mats said
this is also not what the story tells us about goetia


but he does. said in the game AND the mats. he very much care about whats he doing. THat is, becoming the perfect existence.


THis is also not what the mats said.
Now, i really, really mean no offense, firemountain, but im starting to believe there actually is a problem with your reading comprehension.
Im not trying to be condescending here, im seriously worried about you here. Like, what you just said is literally NOT what the mat is saying about Goetia

are you like, confusing stuffs between Solomon and Goetia's profile? Because you sounds like you do.

thanks for the concern, but i am just saying that if the mats try to add new characterization that wasnt explored in the story or wasnt explored/explained in a deep enough degree in the story, then i really dont care.

and i know what the mats said. i read them, i refferenced them and still i dont really care.


if the harry potter books had poor characterization but JKR realeased a material book with a summary of all that she didnt put into the story proper, does that magically make everything ok?

to this day i still find it extremely difficult to take the contents of the FSN materials that touch on poorly explained abilities or scenes in the story seriously because it is the author's job to put them in the actual story. putting a quick patchwork over a mistake doesnt make it better, no matter how you spin it.

so in summation: either put the stuff in the story and explore it to the desired depth, or dont put it in at all.

people shouldnt need to get an additional book to get the full story of a product they already paid into

[castor212]

You're welcome to count with me the sum total of his lines in the game, how many of them portray him as an underhanded, can't-be-assed, "old man", and how many portray him as something resembling the Hector of legend. That way we can resolve this with "facts".

i dont care
i dont care about how you dislike how the portrayal of Hector in legend
i care about how you turn a blind eye on many other qualities the TM version of Hector portray and only focus on the bad

you dont see the whole picture. thats my problem with you.

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if youve seen the whole picture, take it into account, and still dont like Hector, i would respect that.


you didnt yet so far. you simply focus on the things you found about hector disagreeable and just wont see the other arguably redeeming qualities of his and mostly ignores them
thats not a discussion. thats just trying to jam your opinion to others throat
i mean if you want to do that, go ahead
but dont expect people to agree with you or reason with you when you wont even try to look at the other side;s perspective.

E: i think im done here, ive said my piece but if it wont get through to you then i guess i should make better use of my time

zurvan intervening should be my cue from now on to take a break

[UshiProtector]

It's not an exaggeration. Literally every second line, battle shouts aside, is about:

a) he's old, guys
b) he's "carefree" and doesn't wanna try too hard
c) he's sly

This is what you said. And you say "literally", so I take it that you are serious here.

I've debunked many of your points.

A) He's old, but he's already said that he's in his prime. His bond lvl 3 is proof of that.
B) He's carefree and doesn't wanna try to hard, but he will always listen to his master, as said in his profile and his battle dialogue. He complains that his master's working him to the bone, but STILL does the work. Him not wanting to work too hard is the same as cheating on a test without studying and getting good results.
C) He's sly to his enemies, not to his allies. See point B.

[castor212]

thanks for the concern, but i am just saying that if the mats try to add new characterization that wasnt explored in the story or wasnt explored/explained in a deep enough degree in the story, then i really dont care.
either put the stuff in the story and explore it to the desired depth, or dont put it in at all.


people shouldnt need to get an additional book to get the full story of a product they already paid into

well, the problem is that what mats written is already mostly there in the narration of the story.
especially the part of Goetia's motive and character; its storngly there in both Solomon chapter narration AND the mats. I really dont know how would there be dissonance between the mats and the story. Solomon chapter in part 1 is pretty hammering in the narration about that

there really isnt anything different form the mats or the story, at least in regards to Solomon

i dont know if you missed that or simply doesnt remember it.
just voicing my concern here because (seriously, no offense) it seems to happen a lot to you

[Iceblade44]

thanks for the concern, but i am just saying that if the mats try to add new characterization that wasnt explored in the story or wasnt explored/explained in a deep enough degree in the story, then i really dont care.

and i know what the mats said. i read them, i refferenced them and still i dont really care.


if the harry potter books had poor characterization but JKR realeased a material book with a summary of all that she didnt put into the story proper, does that magically make everything ok?

to this day i still find it extremely difficult to take the contents of the FSN materials that touch on poorly explained abilities or scenes in the story seriously because it is the author's job to put them in the actual story. putting a quick patchwork over a mistake doesnt make it better, no matter how you spin it.

so in summation: either put the stuff in the story and explore it to the desired depth, or dont put it in at all.

people shouldnt need to get an additional book to get the full story of a product they already paid into

But as Mizu pointed out, they were references and explored in the story. What are you talking about. Nothing about Goetia's personality didn't show up in the game.

[fire_mountain_30]

this is what i mean

"Speech example
"Solomon. Magic King Solomon. Perhaps you would commit it to memory were I to put it that way?
"Burn. Until not even your ashes are left. That is your future."
"Speak not of lives by human's social standard. By the time the premise of death comes knocking, such point of view no longer holds any value."
"Do I enjoy this, you ask?
Ha-----hahaha, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Of course, of course, OF COURSE, OF COURSE! I enjoy this tremendously! Think you I would thoroughly kill each and every one of you if I do not draw pleasure from it!? This pleases me. Your manner of death is delightful. Putting you to an end brings me such joy. And more than everything, your agony upon death is truly exhilirating!"
//He may said all those things, but in truth, it was the exact opposite. At the very least, it is all dull and boring. Things such as human's manner of death are so worthless that he would never wish to see it.
"Plead for help. Raise your mewling voice. For it is the time for you to drown in the sea of anguish! Behold this festival of flame that set ablaze the altar, rendered in its resplendence!""

i find that the contrast between his edgelord persona and his "i dont care" persona werent properly addressed in the story, for him to be the same person as in the mats

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But as Mizu pointed out, they were references and explored in the story. What are you talking about. Nothing about Goetia's personality didn't show up in the game.

are we seriously accepting the characterization of a multi-year IRL villain to be complete just because of a couple of lines from some other character?

if that is enough, why not just address all characterization in fiction to just 2 lines per character

that to me is insufficient and worthless. it feels like a checkbox rather than characterization.

but anyway, i will stop. i just wanred to say that i agreed with deathhappens on the superior importance of the story vs the mats

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just voicing my concern here because (seriously, no offense) it seems to happen a lot to you

well, you see

when the story doesnt properly explain something

when the full mats arent available to me

when i get denied access to said mats

you can hardly blame my lack of belief

[UshiProtector]

this is what i mean

i find that the contrast between his edgelord persona and his "i dont care" persona werent properly addressed in the story, for him to be the same person as in the mats

Didn't we tell you that he has no "I don't care" persona-?

[castor212]

.

first of all, his dont care persona does not mean he does not care about anything.
Recall Goetia's and the various line of the Demon gods in the story
of how they find human crazy, worthless and a waste, and how they cant be bothered with us after they passed their peak of despair, shown in both Babylonia and Solomon
and lastly, of how Goetia during the last battle with us really hammers in how humans are a waste, and he would rise higher.
he doesnt care about how humans would die, yes
that does not mean he does not care about literally everything else. he isnt apathetic.
Solomon chapter is actually very clear on this, I would suggest you do a reread of existing translation (or was it summary?), because i believe you may have some spotty memories in regards to the story portrayal.

second of all, all the lines from mats, is LITERALLY the lines he said on London. WHich had been analyzed to be a byproduct of the 72 personalities switching on and off depending on the speaking partner.
if anything, the mats voice dialogue example is VERY consistent with the story. THe lines in the mats is not Goetia at his core; it is the lines of the 72 personalities switches. Its just quoting London's dialogue, basically.

and lastly, itsnot just by some lines from some other character
they actually spend several scenes analyzing Goetia's personality, why is he like that, and continues to do so inbetween the main chapters from London up to Solomon.
thats much more than 2 lines per character

tldr yes, storytelling should show stuffs in the narration

but i simply disagree with you in regards to your "the story doesnt match the mats"

at the very least, in Goetia's case, it actually is very spot on.

[Iceblade44]

this is what i mean

"Speech example
"Solomon. Magic King Solomon. Perhaps you would commit it to memory were I to put it that way?
"Burn. Until not even your ashes are left. That is your future."
"Speak not of lives by human's social standard. By the time the premise of death comes knocking, such point of view no longer holds any value."
"Do I enjoy this, you ask?
Ha-----hahaha, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Of course, of course, OF COURSE, OF COURSE! I enjoy this tremendously! Think you I would thoroughly kill each and every one of you if I do not draw pleasure from it!? This pleases me. Your manner of death is delightful. Putting you to an end brings me such joy. And more than everything, your agony upon death is truly exhilirating!"
//He may said all those things, but in truth, it was the exact opposite. At the very least, it is all dull and boring. Things such as human's manner of death are so worthless that he would never wish to see it.
"Plead for help. Raise your mewling voice. For it is the time for you to drown in the sea of anguish! Behold this festival of flame that set ablaze the altar, rendered in its resplendence!""

i find that the contrast between his edgelord persona and his "i dont care" persona werent properly addressed in the story, for him to be the same person as in the mats

No the problem is you aren't even understanding what the mats said. Firstly no where in the fucking mats it says Goetia doesn't care. They say the opposite, his whole point of existence is that he freaking cares. But he cares from a point of arrogance, he believes himself to be a god. He's not caring because he has no interest. To him human life is literally worthless and ugly. That emotion isn't apathy it's contempt. That isn't not caring. That is the whole point behind his "Pity" to pity from the standpoint of your better who doesn't even understand your plight.

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are we seriously accepting the characterization of a multi-year IRL villain to be complete just because of a couple of lines from some other character?

if that is enough, why not just address all characterization in fiction to just 2 lines per character

that to me is insufficient and worthless. it feels like a checkbox rather than characterization.

Do you call someone a multiyear villian when we only interacted with them once? Previously to Salomon we only met Goetia once, once. There comments about him is from that encounter and pointing some stuff out from it. There's nothing contradictpry happening there.

but anyway, i will stop. i just wanred to say that i agreed with deathhappens on the superior importance of the story vs the mats

The thing I'm arguing about tho is that there isn't a superior importance. That isn't how this works. You can't just want to take one thing as true and ignore the rest because you don't like it or that it doesnt make sense to you. They are literally supplementary materials. What you see in the mats are what was going in the brains of the authors when they were making the story. They aren't made to be seperate pieces but that one is the notes the author tool down explaining there thoughts. These two things coincide because that's literally what it is, the stuff we see and the explanation why.

[Lily Emilio]

The only new things about Goetia in the material book are info on his skills i.e Nega Summon, Ind Manifestation. Everything else regarding his personalities, his motivation...were already explored in the goddamn story and the mats just summarized those points. Whoever failed to notice it need to reread the story 100+ times or until they fucking get it.

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Also, if you have hate boner for material book info, stay away from this thread because it's not good for your health.

[Base]

I think Nasu stated somewhere that Goetia acts the way he does because he’s fustrated that he can’t understand humans. This is supported during his final fight with the Protagonist when he’s been rendered mortal and he acts in a completely yet familiar way.

Don’t know where that statement came from, so it might be wrong, but there is evidence to support it in story.

[fire_mountain_30]

ok, let me summarize my points in a more direct way.

i know that Goetia cares in general, hence why he did what he did.

what i meant originally is that the Mats say that he doesnt care about the actual consequences of achieving his plan,in regards to everyone that got incinerated and othee things that got incinerated and that he finds it dull or just not worth his attention, when in the actual story, he does seem to care about the process of going through it, though just how much that translates into enjoyment like he says in London, is up for debate.

so it basically comes down to Mats vs story in regards yo his emotional attachment to the killings he performs.

that was my original point.

i probably ended up saying other stuff, being swept up in the conversation and all, but this is what i originally meant

[Zurvan]

but anyway, i will stop. i just wanred to say that i agreed with deathhappens on the superior importance of the story vs the mats

See, this would be great, theres certainly something to say about story telling in a mobage medium, and I would believe you, but then you have this

i find that the contrast between his edgelord persona and his "i dont care" persona werent properly addressed in the story, for him to be the same person as in the mats

which, if you read the story, you would know there isnt a "I dont care" persona, so if you're seeing different things than there are in the story in front of you, then the first quote is kinda
well, how to put it

you can hardly blame my lack of belief

[fire_mountain_30]

I really dont know how would there be dissonance between the mats and the story.

sidenote

well, Fate is usually rather ok with this, but i have seen series where the mats directly contradict the story (in terms of the abilities of the characters), so it wouldnt be unheard of for me

[Lily Emilio]

None of w/e differences you're saying are in the material entry. Castor is right, your reading comprehension is really alarming.