Badass Versus Thread

[SpoonyViking]

He didn't even used prana burst against siegfried mate. At least compared it to the Sieg fight

It's less he "didn't" and more he "couldn't". The thing about Karna is that he's very inefficient in terms of energy consumption. His fight with Sieg shouldn't be taken as his regular performance at all since he was directly hooked to the Grail then. I'd say a better fight to use as the model for "average" Karna is his fight with Vlad in Romania (where he used Prana Burst very sparingly exactly because he was worried about draining his Master dry).

Also, I'd say Cú Chulainn can take him in melee.

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Grendel Buster is Feint, not Brick Break.

It doesn't seem like much of a feint, though, it seems to be a raw power-style attack.

[8000]

Kingu had his heart ripped clean out of him, hard to regen while down a spiritual core.

I checked and you're right actually.

Although I wouldn't say Enkidu beats Karna in melee regardless. It might be a stalemate.

[SpoonyViking]

Although I wouldn't say Enkidu beats Karna in melee regardless. It might be a stalemate.

Why would Enkidu - the person who can replicate Gate of Babylon at will - even get into melee with Karna?

[You]

I'd say a better fight to use as the model for "average" Karna is his fight with Vlad in Romania (where he used Prana Burst very sparingly exactly because he was worried about draining his Master dry).

Is it?
All the Masters on the Red Team were pretty much top tier in terms of supply.
I would say even that Karna is higher than average.

But then again, for someone like Herc, we've really only really seen him under Ilya and her supply lets him do insane stuff.

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Wonder now who can melee Karna and not die because of lack of protection beyond Sieg and Herk

I would say this melee question can be separated into two further questions.
The first being, who can fight karna melee for an extended period of time. Extended meaning hours.
And who can just fight karna melee without being instantly mooshed.

The first depends mostly on defensive abilities, skill, instinct, battle reading abilities with being strong in melee. Like others have mentioned, someone like Lancelot comes into mind.
The second is much more inclusive. This would be your Cu's.

[Rafflesiac]

It doesn't seem like much of a feint, though, it seems to be a raw power-style attack.

...Have you played Pokemon?

[Zurvan]

In fairness, Feint has low base power

[Rafflesiac]

Technician though

[Megas]

All this talk of melee with Karna just has me imagining him and Arjuna playing GameCube.

[Rafflesiac]

i bet arjuna mains fox

[Megas]

Nero, Tamamo, Nameless.
Actually, add the entire Extella cast to that. :-P

Iirc Karna isn't going all out during most of EXTELLA and is nerfed to hell in CCC.

EXTELLA also has the regalia in play if you're talking about the main story time you fight him.


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i bet arjuna mains fox

I wonder if Karna mains captain falcon

[Rafflesiac]

As the resident hype man definitely

[SpoonyViking]

Is it?
All the Masters on the Red Team were pretty much top tier in terms of supply.
I would say even that Karna is higher than average.

But then again, for someone like Herc, we've really only really seen him under Ilya and her supply lets him do insane stuff.

Yeah, that's why I picked that Karna as the "average", because it's the version between nerfed-as-hell-under-Jinako-Karna and directly-hooked-to-the-Grail-Karna (with the added complication that Extraverse Wizards have access to Code Casts, which tend to influence Servant battles more than regular magecraft).

The first depends mostly on defensive abilities, skill, instinct, battle reading abilities with being strong in melee. Like others have mentioned, someone like Lancelot comes into mind.
The second is much more inclusive. This would be your Cu's.

I don't know, I think a case can be made for Cú going into the first category.

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...Have you played Pokemon?

Only Red, and it's been almost 20 years since I last played it, so the reference flew right over my head. Sorry. :-)

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Iirc Karna isn't going all out during most of EXTELLA and is nerfed to hell in CCC.

EXTELLA also has the regalia in play if you're talking about the main story time you fight him.

The Extella reference was a joke, Megas. :-)

[Ronove]

I don't think Enkidu's taking Karna in melee. Kingu was dying from a stab wound in Babylon, his regen really doesn't seem that good.

Perfect Form regen is servant only thanks to Enkidu's final ascension. Kingu shouldn't have it anyway. Enkidu's good for melee because he combos Age of Babylon with high parameters that he can boost and alternate freely.

Grendel Buster is Feint, not Brick Break.

Kingu had his heart ripped clean out of him, hard to regen while down a spiritual core.

Doesn't GB break Beo out of his container and give him strength from life?

[Arashi_Leonhart]

While Gram is the origin of Balmung they are vastly different,

So is Caliburn. The whole point of that scene though is that when there is direct lineage involved, origin > derivative.

[8000]

Why would Enkidu - the person who can replicate Gate of Babylon at will - even get into melee with Karna?

That was the question asked, who could take Karna in melee without dying. I didn't agree with Enkidu being an answer.

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Perfect Form regen is servant only thanks to Enkidu's final ascension. Kingu shouldn't have it anyway. Enkidu's good for melee because he combos Age of Babylon with high parameters that he can boost and alternate freely.

His Age of Babylon weapons don't have any abilities as far as we know so they wouldn't do much to Karna. There's a limit to how much Enkidu can alter his stats and he has no skill feats to suggest he could ever keep up with Karna. He wouldn't land hits in melee without boosting his speed far above Karna, and that would be at the cost of the strength to hurt him.

[Ronove]

His Age of Babylon weapons don't have any abilities as far as we know so they wouldn't do much to Karna. There's a limit to how much Enkidu can alter his stats and he has no skill feats to suggest he could ever keep up with Karna. He wouldn't land hits in melee without boosting his speed far above Karna, and that would be at the cost of the strength to hurt him.

Top ranked divine spears and chains in the thousands summoned from the ground are going to be a problem for anyone. Think Vlad's stakes but stronger, tougher and more versatile, only missing the concept of striking from Karna's insides. Armor is damage mitigation, this doesn't mean Karna can't be hindered by them. seeing as how LoD Vlad tossed him to the wall with a swipe but did no damage. Enkidu can give himself A+ END, STR, Agility and overpowered regeneration. That's more than enough to match Karna from melee.

No idea where you got the idea that he isn't skilled either. His preferred fighting style from SF and GO is chaining his melee and his spears. Seeing as he's one of the strongest heroes, I'd say he's good at it.

[8000]

The question was Enkidu matching Karna in melee. Obviously a full Age of Babylon spam can hurt him, but not if he's using them for just melee weapons. Enkidu can't give himself A+ in all physical stats as far as we know. At most he can give himself A rank in all of them, but without skill feats he won't tag Karna. Which is why it would be a stalemate at best (although I suppose that would fulfill the requirements of the question at hand).

No idea where you got the idea that he isn't skilled either. His preferred fighting style from SF and GO is chaining his melee and his spears. Seeing as he's one of the strongest heroes, I'd say he's good at it.

I'm pretty sure they're just holding off on showing how Age of Babylon looks visually while Strange Fake is still going on. Same reason we haven't seen Mesket or Hyde's Werewolf form. Gilgamesh also rushes people up close with his animation so I don't know how reliable those are to begin with at determining fighting styles.

Enkidu has never been mentioned as being skilled and his main opponent so far has been Gilgamesh, who notably isn't.

[SpoonyViking]

He fought with Richard in close-quarters, though it wasn't a serious fight.

[Megas]

There's a part of me that wants to believe Raikou would have a good chance of not dying in melee with Karna.

I don't really think she'd win, she'd probably just not die.

[Zurvan]

Raikou would probably survive longer than most

I wonder what Karna would say to her though, maybe she'll also get a scolding