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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #117561
    well, he was a bleeding broken mess afterwards, but yeah.

    equals...
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  2. #117562
    Which is why I'm hesitant on George, but considering the similarities between Siegfried and Sigurds legends that could be possible

    not saying its likely though
    Seibah is the greatest, excsicu...calibah!

  3. #117563
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if Sigurd (maybe George too) would have the skill, but it doesn't show up in FGO for some reason, prolly gameplay

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
    If George had it, you'd think it'd be in his Mats or something.
    He does technically have it but instead of it being a Skill it's an NP, Interfectum Dracones: Dragon Slayer. So it's probably better then the skill but it's also C Rank so AoF nopes that unless if you chain it with Ascalon I guess.

    As for Sigurd we will have to see, I hope he doesn't tho. To give Siegfried something but he will probably have it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post



    is he though?
    A paper thin difference isn't that far, in fact it is basically the same. The only difference is who gets to be on top of the paper pile
    "Only in my company, will you not be a monster"


    anywhere than here

  4. #117564
    I mean, Siegfried has the durable body traits of a dragon, while Sigurd mental traits, so they're distinct enough even disregarding design

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    Is it actually stated that they're equals in skill, or is this taken from Achilles not wanting to battle him again?
    Seibah is the greatest, excsicu...calibah!

  5. #117565
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post

    Is it actually stated that they're equals in skill, or is this taken from Achilles not wanting to battle him again?
    Not equals but only paper thin difference.

    Which is basically equals
    "Only in my company, will you not be a monster"


    anywhere than here

  6. #117566
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    The one that said he'd be at a disadvantage is Caules. Are you saying he would know the precise mechanics of Siegfrieds NP when he wasn't his Master and kept hidden that Black Saber was Siegfried? Caules said that because it was common sense, Siegfried possessed dragon attributes so of course anti-dragon stuff would work against him. Which it does but that also doesn't nullify it completely.
    It was Caules' internal thoughts, but I highly doubt the intention was Caules to be completely wrong. I think it was the narrations way of explaining that Siegfried can be countered by dragon slayers. The problem is the mats don't say how AoF defends against regular attacks from dragon slayers, but I have to imagine the defense it provides is very low.

    Also I want to say only Siegfried actually can make Anti-Dragon attacks passively. All the rest of them can make it only through from NPs so I don't see the problem in this. If George were to make an attack with either Ascalon and Interfectem Draconis by it self I can see it doing no damage to Siegfried. But since George chains NPs anyway I can see that getting past and striking down Siegfried when its together, especially since Ascalon reversed was noted to piece through any armor and ID seems to do more damage to dragons then normal.
    Siegfried is the only one so far with a full out anti-dragon skill that gives him a defensive boost as well as an offensive one, and that does make him special. But it doesn't make sense that other dragon slayers wouldn't do extra damage to AoF simply based on anecdotes of killing dragons. Otherwise it wouldn't matter if a Servant was a dragon slayer because it's dependent exclusively on the NP. Which is clearly not supposed to be the case in-universe.

    Martha... What are you talking about with Martha? She doesn't have any Anti-Dragon abilties. In fact her main weapon is a dragon. Siegfried would destroy her.
    That's what I'm saying, Martha doesn't have any outright anti-dragon abilities, but she shouldn't need to when we logically know she should have an advantage against dragons. That's why I think relying on a specific skill that's listed is too nit picky. If we needed a skill to spell that out every time, every single monster slaying hero would have a skill giving them a conceptual advantage over monsters. We don't need that because we already know they have one from Medusa, it should be the same with Siegfried.

  7. #117567
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    I mean, Siegfried has the durable body traits of a dragon, while Sigurd mental traits, so they're distinct enough even disregarding design
    If talking about differences Sigurd was able to keep his Dragon Core while Siegfried lost his, by the same token Siegfried has Golden Rule and Das Rheingold which Sigurd doesn't have his little cursed treasure ring. And even with that Sigurds luck is still E
    "Only in my company, will you not be a monster"


    anywhere than here

  8. #117568
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Archer is really held back by his lack of power.
    I was asking about skill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    Hektor is pretty much Achilles' equal in terms of skill and Achilles is considered Karna's equal in the story
    I don't believe Achilles and Karma have been directly compared skill wise, have they? Them being equal refers to overall ranking with NPs and skills taken into account.

    The closest comparison of skill between Karna and Achilles I can think of is Siegfried landing hits on Achilles and not landing any on Karna (at least I assume he didn't because Karna's armor never came up in his first fight with Siegfried), but it can easily be argued Achilles wouldn't try to dodge when Siegfried can't hurt him.

  9. #117569
    Did we count Karna using Prana Burst (Flame) in his melee fight? If not i can see many top fighter can clash with him and survive, but if he use it....i dont think any servant mentioned before except Siegfried or maybe Enkidu is reckless enough to face him directly

  10. #117570
    Quote Originally Posted by 8000 View Post
    I don't believe Achilles and Karma have been directly compared skill wise, have they? Them being equal refers to overall ranking with NPs and skills taken into account.

    The closest comparison of skill between Karna and Achilles I can think of is Siegfried landing hits on Achilles and not landing any on Karna (at least I assume he didn't because Karna's armor never came up in his first fight with Siegfried), but it can easily be argued Achilles wouldn't try to dodge when Siegfried can't hurt him.
    Uh, iirc they were both covered in small wounds before Siegfried went reckless
    Seibah is the greatest, excsicu...calibah!

  11. #117571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    Uh, iirc they were both covered in small wounds before Siegfried went reckless
    Which instance are you talking about?

  12. #117572
    死徒 Dead Apostle DTTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8000 View Post

    The closest comparison of skill between Karna and Achilles I can think of is Siegfried landing hits on Achilles and not landing any on Karna
    The clang of clashing steel rang out for over the ten thousandth time.
    They were covered by over a thousand light, recovering wounds.
    Finally, both knights stopped, but not from fatigue. For these matchless heroes, even three days'
    worth of fighting would not exhaust them. But time waits for no man—and the pitch-black sky
    was becoming a gloomy dark blue.
    .

  13. #117573
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8000 View Post
    It was Caules' internal thoughts, but I highly doubt the intention was Caules to be completely wrong. I think it was the narrations way of explaining that Siegfried can be countered by dragon slayers. The problem is the mats don't say how AoF defends against regular attacks from dragon slayers, but I have to imagine the defense it provides is very low.
    That was a general statement tho, as in its a general conclusion ignoring all other factors. Siegfried is dragon thus dragon slayer have an advantage against him. It isn't taking the paticualar abilties of the Servants in account, just there general states. What the mats say is AoF defends agaisnt all attacks B and lower. That is the same for everything. The only time it talks about exceptions is when it goes B+. That's it. B is the minimum, it doesn't get lower.

    Siegfried is the only one so far with a full out anti-dragon skill that gives him a defensive boost as well as an offensive one, and that does make him special. But it doesn't make sense that other dragon slayers wouldn't do extra damage to AoF simply based on anecdotes of killing dragons. Otherwise it wouldn't matter if a Servant was a dragon slayer because it's dependent exclusively on the NP. Which is clearly not supposed to be the case in-universe.
    They don't because they already get anti-dragon stuff through their NPs. That is where their anecdotes of dragon slaying goes.

    That's what I'm saying, Martha doesn't have any outright anti-dragon abilities, but she shouldn't need to when we logically know she should have an advantage against dragons. That's why I think relying on a specific skill that's listed is too nit picky. If we needed a skill to spell that out every time, every single monster slaying hero would have a skill giving them a conceptual advantage over monsters. We don't need that because we already know they have one from Medusa, it should be the same with Siegfried.
    You don't just do extra damage because you fought it before, or at least that doesn't apply to every single instance. Artoria killed Dragons but she doesn't get anything that boosts her damage. What they get is tactics, that is what monsters slayers get, they don't get extra damage simply because they killed a lot of them, they gain knowledge on how to fight them. Only in cases where it's made explicit like Raikou's Mystery Slayer or Siegfrieds Dragon Slayer we know that they do extra damage.
    "Only in my company, will you not be a monster"


    anywhere than here

  14. #117574
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors 8000's Avatar
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    Hm, okay. Although it's still odd no one even noticed Karna had armor that whole fight.

  15. #117575
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8000 View Post
    Which instance are you talking about?
    I think he is talking about Siegfried vs Karna. Which Siegfried did land hits

    - - - Updated - - -

    Snipe
    "Only in my company, will you not be a monster"


    anywhere than here

  16. #117576
    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    Uh, iirc they were both covered in small wounds before Siegfried went reckless
    It was after Siegfried went reckless, Karna strike 78 attack first while Siegfried just tanking every attack

  17. #117577
    Yeah, rereading it that is the case, but thats mainly because of the ranged advantage that Karna has

    or any lancer for that matter
    Seibah is the greatest, excsicu...calibah!

  18. #117578
    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    I mean, Siegfried has the durable body traits of a dragon, while Sigurd mental traits, so they're distinct enough even disregarding design

    - - - Updated - - -

    Is it actually stated that they're equals in skill, or is this taken from Achilles not wanting to battle him again?
    is it just me or did siegfried lose a lot of shit as a servant?

    lost his dragon core

    lost his dragon trait magic resistance, like the one artutia and elisabeth have

    and he seems to have lost a dragon hybrid form that he gets in his last ascension.

    my boy got robbed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  19. #117579
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Going on Martha for a bit. She does have an Anti-Dragon attack. Her punches, her NP. It is listed as Anti-Dragon. That is where the anecdotes of her dragon subjugation went. If she doesn't do that, she doesn't do extra damage to Dragon types
    "Only in my company, will you not be a monster"


    anywhere than here

  20. #117580
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors 8000's Avatar
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    Hm, I guess I see what you're saying about AoF vs dragon slayers. It's true that no dragon slaying Servant has thus far not had that as an NP. Except Artoria, but I don't think Vortigern turning into a dragon is mentioned in her legends.

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