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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #118521
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
    Tiamat is a goddess and the mud comes from her divinity (Roman calls the spread of the chaos tide her authority).

    I'm not seeing what sense it would make for the mud to suppress her divinity at all here.
    do you really need to have Divinity to keep your Authority though? i know it is her Authority, but one doesnt seem to fully rely on the other.

    look at Quetz. she has goddess divine core EX and cant use several of her Authorities.

    also, it isnt like you cant have a power but suffer drawbacks from it. it isnt uncommon in fiction in general or the nasuverse
    Last edited by fire_mountain_30; August 9th, 2018 at 03:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  2. #118522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    The actual implication is closer to that they come from the same or similar sources but have a different filter. Chaos Tide is the same substance as Grail Mud.
    Really? But wasn't the mud born from all the evils of humanity?
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.

  3. #118523
    Quote Originally Posted by Mizukume View Post
    It doesn't matter dude. Fact is that Tiamat has divinity, regardless of your disbelief.
    A - did you not read YOU's input on the topic? we are probably talking about two different types of Divinity.

    B - this whole thing started from discussing the Kingu scene with Tiamat. if she has divinity, but not the divinity that is relevant for how the chain works, which is the skill. if the chain focuses on a different divinity, why then use it for the argument of the effectiveness of NPs concerning their targets? and he didnt fail at his job. according to a discussion you once had on the topic, he held her for several hours.

    C - how do you personally reconcile her Monstruous Strenght and its inherent relationship with demonic beasts and consequential loss of divinity with your argument that she still has substancial ammounts of divinity, which is what the chain targets?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  4. #118524
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    B - this whole thing started from discussing the Kingu scene with Tiamat. if she has divinity, but not the divinity that is relevant for how the chain works, which is the skill. if the chain focuses on a different divinity, why then use it for the argument of the effectiveness of NPs concerning their targets? and he didnt fail at his job. according to a discussion you once had on the topic, he held her for several hours.
    Chain should work on both because it worked on Bull of Heaven and stuff
    The chain should even work on Divine Beasts like Iskander's bulls
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  5. #118525
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    Chain should work on both because it worked on Bull of Heaven and stuff
    The chain should even work on Divine Beasts like Iskander's bulls
    what do we even know about the bull of heaven though? i dont think we know much, besides him being both a god and a divine beast, but we dont have a stat sheet and it isnt a demonic beast but a divine one
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  6. #118526
    Whats this about different kinds of Divinity???

    - - - Updated - - -

    We'll we have seen the boar in FGO

  7. #118527
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Really? But wasn't the mud born from all the evils of humanity?
    There's more grail mud than just the Grail Mud in FSN
    That quote is referring to shit that comes out of Grails as a general idea.
    And the shit that comes out of Grails is "formless colorless stuff that can do anything"
    while chaos tide is "stuff that can give birth to anything"
    See the similiarities?
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  8. #118528
    Bitchin' Arashi_Leonhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Really? But wasn't the mud born from all the evils of humanity?
    原初の生命。混沌の海。[r]魔術世界においては聖杯の泥と呼ばれるもの。
    The origin of life. The sea of chaos. In the world of magecraft, it is called grail mud.


    That's why I'm talking about the filter. Angra and Tiamat have slightly different orientations.

  9. #118529
    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    Whats this about different kinds of Divinity???
    dont freak out Skadi, your divinity is still the cute type
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  10. #118530
    I'm more worried on what you guys are smoking

  11. #118531
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    There's more grail mud than just the Grail Mud in FSN
    That quote is referring to shit that comes out of Grails as a general idea.
    And the shit that comes out of Grails is "formless colorless stuff that can do anything"
    while chaos tide is "stuff that can give birth to anything"
    See the similiarities?
    you telling me that the Apostoles of Jesus drank that stuff? that seems problematic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    I'm more worried on what you guys are smoking
    condensed Jotun tears
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  12. #118532
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    And the shit that comes out of Grails is "formless colorless stuff that can do anything"
    while chaos tide is "stuff that can give birth to anything"
    See the similiarities?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    That's why I'm talking about the filter. Angra and Tiamat have slightly different orientations.
    I see. So basically, the stuff inside the Grail is similar to (and might even be?) the chaos tide, but since Angra Mainyu tainted the Grail, it will only come out as the assortment of curses and evils. Thanks!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    you telling me that the Apostoles of Jesus drank that stuff? that seems problematic.
    No, because the Grail is pretty explicitly said to not the same thing as the cup from the Last Supper.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.

  13. #118533
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    what do we even know about the bull of heaven though? i dont think we know much, besides him being both a god and a divine beast, but we dont have a stat sheet and it isnt a demonic beast but a divine one
    Okay first things first.
    For Phantasmal Species the ranking goes
    Monstrous Beast < Phantasmal Beast < Divine Beast

    What downgrades your Divinity is if you are a Monster, different kanji to Monstrous Beast which is just a sub-classification of Phantasmal Species.
    Quote Originally Posted by cm3
    Magical Beasts (AKA “Monsters” on Fuyuki)
    (Translator’s Note: I chose the term “Magical Beasts” because the following entry actually refers to literal Monsters [怪物], which is different from Magical Beasts [魔獣]. I am certain arai would agree. )

    An umbrella term that encompasses all beasts that do not fall within the normal ecosystem. In this context, “beast” is a thaumaturgical term, and does not necessarily mean quadrupedal mammals. Magical Beasts cannot be explained by immature research or sudden mutations. They are true deviations from biology. Roughly Magical Beasts can be classified into Monstrous Beasts -> Phantasmal Beasts -> Divine Beasts in ascending order towards higher existence (confirming arai’s theory that Holy Beasts and Divine Beasts are the same).
    Most Magical Beasts have existed since the Age of Gods, and are Chimeras formed from mixing different species. They live on currently undeveloped lands that cannot be reached by mankind. Furthermore, Phantasmal Beasts that have existed in the past have almost all migrated to a different world presented as the “Inside of the World”.
    Although classified as a Monstrous Beast, the Pegasus that Rider mounted in the story is an existence closer to that of a Phantasmal Beast due to surviving over a very long period of time. Also worth mentioning is that, Phantasmal Beasts that have survived over thousands of years are on the same tier as True Magic, thus rendering mysteries on the level of sorcery completely ineffective against them.


    The Pinnacle of Phantasmal Species – Dragons
    Dragons, or Magical Beasts similar to Dragons, have members in all classes of Magical Beasts (Monstrous, Phantasmal, and Divine Beasts). Dragons are always thought to be the greatest species within their corresponding classes. Because there are dragons of the Monstrous, Phantasmal, and Divine classes, they have been involved with mankind since before the Age of Gods. They have also left many legends in the field of thaumaturgy. (Translator's Note: Dragons can be really weak or really strong. What Nero had was a true Dragon in Nasu's new broader definition, but of a lower class, of course.)

    A Heroic Spirit with a Rank in Monster ∙ Magical Beast
    Because Rider’s true identity is Medusa, she possesses a rank of Monster ∙ Magical Beast. As a result, the rank of her Divinity decreased to the lowest value of E-. As compensation, she received the ability of Monsters and Magical Beasts, Monstrous Strength.

    Medusa
    Rider is more of a Divine Spirit than a Heroic Spirit. Yet, it is better to call her “an anti-hero closer to a monster” instead of a Divine Spirit. Because she possesses a rank as a monster, Rider is very incompatible with Servants who fought off monsters in their tales.
    Can you be a Monster and a Monstrous Beast? Yes.
    Can you be one and not the other? Yes.

    So Tiamat is a Monster sure but that body is the body of a God. So it's still got Divinity.
    Not the stat sheet Divinity that says "Aptitude as a Divine Spirit." But still divine.
    Last edited by You; August 9th, 2018 at 04:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  14. #118534
    you just said "What downgrades your Divinity is if you are a Monster" and at the end you said "So Tiamat is a Monster".

    so are you agreeing with me or did you misspeak?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Gil was meant to be Type Earth, but it didn't happen due to him rejecting what he was supposed to be or w/e he did.

  15. #118535
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    you just said "What downgrades your Divinity is if you are a Monster" and at the end you said "So Tiamat is a Monster".

    so are you agreeing with me or did you misspeak?
    I agree that Tiamat would have lower aptitude as a Divine Spirit as she is a Monster.
    But it isn't a factor to begin with because Tiamat isn't a Divine Spirit.
    She is a God with the body of a God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  16. #118536
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    I agree that Tiamat would have lower aptitude as a Divine Spirit as she is a Monster.
    But it isn't a factor to begin with because Tiamat isn't a Divine Spirit.
    She is a God with the body of a God.
    So her body can still exist in the World despite being made of True Ether, or does the mud change that?

  17. #118537
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    So her body can still exist in the World despite being made of True Ether, or does the mud change that?
    Well back then the world was filled with true ether
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  18. #118538
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    Well back then the world was filled with true ether
    My question was whether it can exist in the World now, which lacks True Ether.

  19. #118539
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    My question was whether it can exist in the World now, which lacks True Ether.
    Dunno but as long as it can spread its own true ether like the Flat Snark can it should be fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  20. #118540
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    Any idea where Holy Beasts rank among the Phantasmal Species ranking, or are they still a vague classification in the Nasuverse?

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