Badass Versus Thread

[fire_mountain_30]

Do you just ignore other people's posts that provide said context, or is reading really that hard?

I am not exactly debatingnother people here. I see 2 guys arguing, i drop a couple of facts into the conversation and walk away. If you want to discuss something with me specifically, please address me specifically

[Ronove]

reminder that the Cosmos Shield is described in the Apo Mats as "comparable to Rho Aias" and we know how it performed against Cu

Ya wanna rethink this?

1) Kosmos are Aias are comparable, not the same as being equal
2) Archer's Rho Aias is degraded
3) Archer's magic energy has no comparison to Ajax
4) Rho Aias is a conceptual defense against projectiles. Kosmos is a conceptual defense against all attacks not on the level/scale of anti-world, projectiles, melee or otherwise.

You can't even begin to reason a comparison here that favors Cu.

[Blastedspider]

Retreading the same grounds and neither side budging is fun and all, but at least try to figure it out when to agree to disagree.

People can think whatever they want. Its just that this particular argument was flawed then and is still flowed now.

[fire_mountain_30]

Ya wanna rethink this?

1) Kosmos are Aias are comparable, not the same as being equal
2) Archer's Rho Aias is degraded
3) Archer's magic energy has no comparison to Ajax
4) Rho Aias is a conceptual defense against projectiles. Kosmos is a conceptual defense against all attacks not on the level/scale of anti-world, projectiles, melee or otherwise.

You can't even begin to reason a comparison here that favors Cu.

Runes can increase GB by the same ammount that RA is degraded, so it evens out

yeah and VS wasnt anti-world, was it? not to mention that Cosmos is limited unless Achilles gives up all other NPs

[AAM1232]

Runes can increase GB by the same ammount that RA is degraded, so it evens out

yeah and VS wasnt anti-world, was it? not to mention that Cosmos is limited unless Achilles gives up all other NPs

VS being super strong has no bearing on GB bypassing Kosmos, especially since VS didn't even manage to touch Sieg or Astolfo after breaking Kosmos. GB has no real chance vs Kosmos unless you decide that not grasping context is actually logical.

Also, where's that Kosmos limitation coming from anyway? No one has presented any source about it and Apo mats and GO hasn't really said anything about it so far.

[LeadDemon]

VS being super strong has no bearing on GB bypassing Kosmos, especially since VS didn't even manage to touch Sieg or Astolfo after breaking Kosmos. GB has no real chance vs Kosmos unless you decide that not grasping context is actually logical.

Also, where's that Kosmos limitation coming from anyway? No one has presented any source about it and Apo mats and GO hasn't really said anything about it so far.

The in-game Ach profile said he can only full Kosmos with his other NPs sealed for a while, but it was changed and I think Higashide tweeted about it? Something about the in-game profile using info from an older draft before he finalized it, but the current game profile (as well as Apo mats which never had the 'has to seal other NPs' thing) uses the finalized version where sealing his other NPs isn't a thing.

[AAM1232]

The in-game Ach profile said he can only full Kosmos with his other NPs sealed for a while, but it was changed and I think Higashide tweeted about it? Something about the in-game profile using info from an older draft before he finalized it, but the current game profile (as well as Apo mats which never had the 'has to seal other NPs' thing) uses the finalized version where sealing his other NPs isn't a thing.

So an outdated piece of information huh. I guess it's no longer meaningful to bring it up in the future about Kosmos.

[fire_mountain_30]

you have yet to justify how a comparable shield to Rho Aias would fare better when accounting for the debuff frok the original from projection and the rune buff

[Ronove]

Runes can increase GB by the same ammount that RA is degraded, so it evens out

3) Archer's magic energy has no comparison to Ajax

Degradation is only part of the problem. Archer is not Ajax. Magic energy is used to fuel the noble phantasm, and we've already had cases where projection has failed to match the full power of the original. Emiya's Caladbolg, made into a broken phantasm only scorched the area around a cemetery and was only able to take one life from Heracles. Fergus's true name release of Caladbolg shredded an entire island and was killing a demon pillar over and over again. Saber Medb's profile also says her Caladbolg is not as strong as Fergus' despite it being the same NP.

yeah and VS wasnt anti-world, was it? not to mention that Cosmos is limited unless Achilles gives up all other NPs

VS is only the strongest NP of someone contending for the title of strongest servant circa 2013, an EX ranked noble-phantasm and so powerful that the king of the Indian gods had difficulty using it. Meanwhile Cu at his very best is only said to be as strong as Heracles and Artoria. Besides, didn't Apocrypha LN mention VS was burning the "god" inside Achilles' shield? Does anyone have translations for it?

[KiritoX]

Karna vs Gugalanna

Can Vasavi Shakti actually kill anything?

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

I don't know servant version has enough mana, but I imagine living Karna could do it.

[AAM1232]

you have yet to justify how a comparable shield to Rho Aias would fare better when accounting for the debuff frok the original from projection and the rune buff

You have to justify how GB is somehow better than VS first rather than jump to inane assumptions and act like they're actually meaningful.

[Ronove]

I don't know servant version has enough mana, but I imagine living Karna could do it.

We've seen at least two versions of Karna with mana boosts though.

[fire_mountain_30]

VS is only the strongest NP of someone contending for the title of strongest servant circa 2013, an EX ranked noble-phantasm and so powerful that the king of the Indian gods had difficulty using it. Meanwhile Cu at his very best is only said to be as strong as Heracles and Artoria. Besides, didn't Apocrypha LN mention VS was burning the "god" inside Achilles' shield? Does anyone have translations for it?

And Cu is just the guy ghat fought the strongest servant for 12 hours while having kirei as a master, potentially no mana supply (since masters can forcefully cut off their supply to servants and kirei is kirei) and hindered by ome command spell because he hadnt fought Gil before.

Oh and 1 spear wanked by archer to have surpassed the 1st or 2nd strongest weapon in Norse myth

- - - Updated - - -

You have to justify how GB is somehow better than VS first rather than jump to inane assumptions and act like they're actually meaningful.

I justify it with the mats stating that the 2 shields are comparable and having lost to GB, the exact sort of weapon that it was made to block.

Remimder that Hector's anti army A rank thrown spear beat the original Rho Aias, which is comparable to a buffed gae bolg

(How did Durandal fare against the gods in LB5 again?)

[AAM1232]

I justify it with the mats stating that the 2 shields are comparable and having lost to GB, the exact sort of weapon that it was made to block.

Remimder that Hector's anti army A rank thrown spear beat the original Rho Aias, which is comparable to a buffed gae bolg

(How did Durandal fare against the gods in LB5 again?)

I get that you can't understand that comparable =/= equal, but VS wasn't being stopped by Balmung and would have killed the transformed Sieg who still has AoF for damage reduction, while Kosmos managed to leave Sieg unharmed from it despite breaking. GB on the other hand is not only far weaker in terms of the power scale, it also got mostly nulled by a degraded copy that left Archer barely alive at the end, even if he was beaten.

VS and Kosmos have better hype in mats as well, unlike Rho Aias, so again, where is this idiocy coming from?

Durandal managed to get used twice to counteract Artemis's orbital blasts by Hector and Mandricardo. Both of whom died in the end due to it. An utterly irrelevant point is not helping here.

[Ronove]

And Cu is just the guy ghat fought the strongest servant for 12 hours

You mean the strongest servant that lost to Shirou Saber and a bunch of teenagers? Gilgamesh is a walking plot-device in FSN that adheres to whatever job Nasu wants him to accomplish at the time. He could have faced Cu in melee for that whole 12 hours. It took place in a tiny basement, so he sure wasn't using GoB to any meaningful capacity.

while having kirei as a master, potentially no mana supply (since masters can forcefully cut off their supply to servants and kirei is kirei) and hindered by ome command spell because he hadnt fought Gil before.

Gilgamesh also has Kirei as a master. Kirei never said, nor was it ever implied, to have cut Cu off. Cu's CS was made days before, where he repeatedly broke them by trying to use GB to kill Saber and Emiya. Additionally? One of Kirei's CS was to "always survive the first battle" (paraphrase), defensively that's a buff.

Oh and 1 spear wanked by archer to have surpassed the 1st or 2nd strongest weapon in Norse myth

All this means is that Gungnir is below A rank and highly disadvantaged in a fight against Artoria and Heracles, both of whom Karna surpasses. Looks pretty bad on Odin if that's what you want to roll with. Gungnir is also not the most powerful weapon in Norse. That title belongs to the guy that wiped off the AoG completely.

Of course, this is all assuming Emiya knows how the Norse Chief god would fight with his primary weapon and this isn't just a poor argument by making comparisons to individuals and powers we have never seen before.

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

I wonder if Emiya has actually seen the OG Gungnir, or if he's seen the ones the Valkyries wield. That GB wank always felt excessive to me since Gungnir is surely a far more famous spear. Obviously there's nothing supporting my speculation though and I'm not trying to use it in an argument here.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

I wonder if Emiya has actually seen the OG Gungnir, or if he's seen the ones the Valkyries wield. That GB wank always felt excessive to me since Gungnir is surely a far more famous spear. Obviously there's nothing supporting my speculation though and I'm not trying to use it in an argument here.

Can be either if the author wanted to BS enough. It could be Valkyries, or it could be Odin's in his Bolverk guise. For instance, what if he literally became human, therefore demoting Gungir to something being made by gods for humans. Either way, we're left with the bizarre scenario where EMIYA states that, out of all the spears he knows of, including Gungir, none can get through one layer, and Gae Bolg, merely double Gungir(fake) has more than 7 times the performance.

[eddyak]

I'd guess GB is just higher on firepower. Gae Bolg can hit you and your army from over the horizon, IIRC, but then maybe Gungnir can punch a hole through your squad from the next country over.

[Lily Emilio]

The Gungnirs wield by the valkyries are degraded fakes based on Odin's Gungnir, and they use the fakes as normal weapons without true name release. AoE Gae Bolg is based on the original Gungnir.