Badass Versus Thread

[eddyak]

I'm just baffled people actually think Yggdmillennia's team stands even the slightest chance versus the team picked by the MA.

Achilles, unscratchable by anyone other than Chiron, and he kicked Chiron's butt anyway.
Karna, unscratchable by most of the other team, could outfight all but one or two of them, and has more firepower than everybody else in the war put together.
Mordred, again, damn near invincible in her armour, can counter the other team's strongest.
Gigantic fortress with lasers that eat A rank MR alive and a lady who can toss poisons around that seemingly nobody on the other team can counter.
Spartacus, who eats your damage, laughs in your face and then vomits it back at you.
Atalante, who can bypass Siegfried's armour just by pulling her bow really hard.
Jack, who can insta-kill anything female (but, to be fair, failed at that a couple times).
Shakespeare, Plot Incarnate.

Literally all Amakusa had to do was send in the troops on max murder and he'd have won, no need for ridiculous Grail-stealing antics that prolonged the fight and gave Plot a chance to work its magic.

"Sort of counter"

Proof? Anime and VS x Balmung translation show otherwise. Also VS was tied with an A+ NP in Link

Rewatch it if you think they were anywhere near equal. Karna tosses BK, Sieg tosses out a Balmung, Balmung resists for like a second before everything goes all flamey, and VS wobbles about the strength scale depending on who's writing him. Hell, just go watch his Extella NP- it doesn't even hit and still does NP damage.

"Adam cant tank Karna"

Proof? He would have survived Balmung and Clarent together if they did not get him off the ground first.

God-killing weapon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human. BK's also pretty high above the two beam weapons in AoE destruction.

[/quote]"Atalante blasted the golems and homunculi, not the Servants."

She shot all of them because she shot the castle with them all in it and the narrstion described that dodging the arrows wasnt an issue for them[/QUOTE]
She achieved what she set out to do, which was to waste a good chunk of their forces. She hits heroes pretty easily when she needs to, Siegfried can attest to that.

[SpoonyViking]

Amakusa had to use a Command Seal on Shakespeare just so he wouldn't make things more interesting by acting against his own team. *That's* how well he follows orders.

Adam needed a concerted effort from various Servants - at least two of them powerhouses - to be defeated.

- - - Updated - - -

Uh... Jack is part of the Black Team, Eddy.

[Zurvan]

Jack's also useless lmao

[eddyak]

Amakusa had to use a Command Seal on Shakespeare just so he wouldn't make things more interesting by acting against his own team. *That's* how well he follows orders.

Adam needed a concerted effort from various Servants - at least two of them powerhouses - to be defeated.

Uh... Jack is part of the Black Team, Eddy.

Shakes can also be tied up and left in the basement. It's not as though he could survive literally anybody else in the war, Masters included. It's not as though he's a guaranteed your-team-loses button, he's just more likely to drag it out into a tragedy slash comedy slash drama.

Adam is a team forfeit button. He doesn't help anybody to win anything, and at worst he creates a situation where only something like the god-slaying VS has a chance of actually killing him. If Adam's complete, the only person who wins is Avicebron, and he doesn't give a shit about winning in the first place.

And eh, it's not as though Jack's a big deal for anybody- at most she might be able to take out Atalante, Shakes, Fran or Astolfo, or the Yggd team's masters, none of the big movers & shakers.

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

God-killing weapon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human

reinforced rin could probably beat euryale to death, rin is a god-killing weapon

[eddyak]

Yes, I'm sure VS, a weapon wielded by bloody Indra, is a weapon designed to kill small girls.

The Indian pantheon is the DBZ of pantheons. There's a reason Nasu & everybody else make such a big deal out of it, and VS is one of the biggest dicks it can swing around. It's one of the few things I could imagine one-upping Ea.

Bear in mind this is the opinion of someone who rolls his eyes every time he sees Karna & Arjuna shoehorned in. I don't like them, but they're objectively big & bad.

[SpoonyViking]

Are we assuming the Masters are omniscient and know enough to tie up / kill Shakespeare before he stirs up the plot? Because Amakusa didn't.

I'm just saying, these aren't D&D players looking for the most optimal strategy, they're characters in a story, and we should probably take their personalities into account.

[Hakuno]

The Indian pantheon is the DBZ of pantheons. There's a reason Nasu & everybody else make such a big deal out of it, and VS is one of the biggest dicks it can swing around. It's one of the few things I could imagine one-upping Ea.

And still was almost pushed back by a CS powered Balmung

[eddyak]

That wasn't my point, my point was that if his team thought he was screwing them over any of them could take him out.

He isn't a fixture of the story, he's more stabbable than anybody else in the war, and that goes for the masters as well.

- - - Updated - - -

And still was almost pushed back by a CS powered Balmung

It wasn't pushed back, he was still gonna die. A CS-powered Balmung bought its owner a few seconds of life.

[Hakuno]

It wasn't pushed back, he was still gonna die. A CS-powered Balmung bought its owner a few seconds of life.

?

As the command spell activated, a tsunami of power swelled up from the sword and assaulted the Lancer.
Lancer of Red gazed in amazement. Yes, his opponent had one command spell remaining. With the amplification from that command spell he might reach the god slayer.
Is he challenging his overwhelming disadvantage or turning into an advantage?
For the first time, Lancer of Red's face showed slight anguish. The power from the spear matched that of the sword, the Servants were now contending based on nothing but pure will.

[Zurvan]

Are we assuming the Masters are omniscient and know enough to tie up / kill Shakespeare before he stirs up the plot? Because Amakusa didn't.

I'm just saying, these aren't D&D players looking for the most optimal strategy, they're characters in a story, and we should probably take their personalities into account.

In that case, Black team loses Avicebron and Adam. They're not in that war to fight...

[HeroOfTheAges]

CS Balmung and Vasavi Shakti had become a clash of pure wills though. And then it was stated that Karna was unbeatable in a clash of pure will. And after that, Kosmos had to be deployed to save Sieg. And that Vasavi Shakti, that had clashed with a Balmung of equal power, still had enough power left to completely destroy a shield that cold block anything other than anti world.
Also are there CS in this scenario? Because otherwise there is no chance for Team Black to survive even one VS. And, if there are CS, Karna could be boosted by one of his own. In exchange though, Siegfried cannot touch Karna if he has not used VS. Karna tanked Balmung just by using his armour. The fight is at worst a tie for Karna and at best a win, since Team Black does not have Kosmos.
Hippogrif can dodge Semi's blasts, true. Astolfo has no chance of even touching Semi though. Who can just as easily target someone else after seeing that its useless to target Astolfo.
Achilles has always won against Chiron so far. And once Chiron is gone, there is no one that can even touch him. Not only his immortality, his shield as well as his chariot could take down the other members of Team black, after he is done with Chiron.
Adam could be beat by any 2 servants of team lack, other than Atlanta or Shakes. Spartacus could take damage and crying warmonger would have a huge power up. Semi's Ex rank blasts, Clarent Blood Arthur, Troias Tragodia, Brahmasthra could all beat him.

Also, Vlad vs Karna was going well for Vlad, when Vlad was utilizing his full power and Karna was just blocking or dodging. When Karna got serious, Vlad was almost nuked, before he got saved due to Karna getting interrupted.

If we are taking into account the character flaws of Shakespeare, we should also do the same for Team Black. Astolfo is more than likely to wander of. Avicebron only cares for Adam . Jack cares even less about the war. Siegfried might decide to give his life to a random passerby(lol). However, in a versus scenario we are assuming that all characters are united and fighting to win.

[Hakuno]

1) Still doesn't mean shit against something like Ea if VS had trouble in that situation against CS Balmung.2) It's a still firing beam, where did they say that because of the clash it was weakened before clashing Kosmos?

[SpoonyViking]

In that case, Black team loses Avicebron and Adam. They're not in that war to fight...

If we are taking into account the character flaws of Shakespeare, we should also do the same for Team Black.

Not just Shakespeare, but yes, good points.
Well, assuming everyone is acting in the most optimal way possible, I maintain my earlier assessments: if the Red Team stays in the Gardens (and it's true, they have no reason to go down), it wins; if it's an open battle, while chaotic enough that it could go either way, I do think the Black Team has more of an advantage.

[Menwearpink]

I mean if Karna tries to Vs Adam I’m pretty sure Adam + Balmung can beat through it just fine. Also it’s Siegfried Balmung, not Sieg Balmung so take what you will on the thoughts of willpower in that regard.

I also Inagine that they could raid the Gardens with Hippo or wait for Adam to grow big enough to just punch it tbh.

[Zork Knight]

Does Siegfried's Balmung being at the post-Strengthening EX-Rank make any difference at all, or is it irrelevant since it never factored into a story/mats?

[fire_mountain_30]

CS are just raw mana for the most part.

Chiron knowns magecraft and Avicebron stole the master rights from Spartacus's master. I am sure that they can easiky figure something like that out.

"Siegfried cant touch Karna with his armour"

> their first fight had it stated that both could die from melee if they showed any opening> that neck of his seems awfully fit for a beheading> A rank strenght Dracula could punch stakes through the armour.

If we are including FGO stuff, why not use Dracula instead of vanilla Vlad?

"Astolfo cant touch Semi"

Hypogriff says otherwise. Also his BS saber astolfo powers

"Achilles has always won against Chiron so far"

Yeah by a hair's breath (also BS NP level punches) after a long fight and with a lot of injuries involved and without him using Antares Snipe

"Achilles has always won against Chiron so far. And once Chiron is gone, there is no one that can even touch him"

Stakes from the ground to the heel, stakes from the inside, vampire bite, trap of Argalia, anti-divine net, golem cement good enough to seal off his chariot.

"Adam could be beat by any 2 servants of team lack, other than Atlanta or Shakes"

Jeanne bought them time and limited its movements, Chiron blinded him and analyzed its inner workings, Astolfo stopped its regen and Mordy and Sieg unleashed 2 A+ NPs in the precise spots needed. And this was the weakest version of Adam and without using the roar shockwave attack


"Vlad was utilizing his full power and Karna was just blocking or dodging"

Karna was actively chasing after Vlad and spamming fire and that is all he could do because any more than that could kill his master

- - - Updated - - -

I mean if Karna tries to Vs Adam I’m pretty sure Adam + Balmung can beat through it just fine. Also it’s Siegfried Balmung, not Sieg Balmung so take what you will on the thoughts of willpower in that regard. I also Inagine that they could raid the Gardens with Hippo or wait for Adam to grow big enough to just punch it tbh.

Siegfried had enough willpower to pull the heart stunt and still live for a short wille, Batte Continuation style. It is roughly the same ammount of willpower that Karna showed in his death scene, if we equate willpower to resisting death (HA had Saber die instantly from Frag, for a comparisson)Actual Servants are supposed to have insane ammounts of willpower, which is why what Darnic managed to do to Vlad was stated to be unthinkeable

[Zork Knight]

CIf we are including FGO stuff, why not use Dracula instead of vanilla Vlad?

Hypogriff says otherwise. Also his BS saber astolfo powers

Stakes from the ground to the heel, stakes from the inside, vampire bite, trap of Argalia, anti-divine net, golem cement good enough to seal off his chariot.

Because the FGO Servants are supposed to be the same as their Apocrypha versions were, updated I suppose. But Berserker Vlad is very different from Romania Lancer Vlad. And Rider Astolfo doesn't have the divine net or other BS powers.

[eddyak]

CS are just raw mana for the most part.

More mana doesn't let a Servant who can't teleport, teleport. "Just raw mana" is the most basic and least interesting use they have.

"Astolfo cant touch Semi"

Hypogriff says otherwise. Also his BS saber astolfo powers

What the hell can a Hippogriff do against a flying fortress? Hippogriff dies without the book protecting it, it doesn't have the raw damage to do much more than knock out a few laser platforms, and can't transport more than two people at a time.

"Achilles has always won against Chiron so far. And once Chiron is gone, there is no one that can even touch him"

Stakes from the ground to the heel, stakes from the inside, vampire bite, trap of Argalia, anti-divine net, golem cement good enough to seal off his chariot.

The heel he has an armoured boot on? The dracula that everybody would team up against the moment they realised it existed? The anti-divine net that Rider Astolfo doesn't actually have?

[AAM1232]

Hippogriff phases through damage, but takes up a lot of mana equivalent to a A-Rank NP. But apart from that at best it's a stalemate if Red leaves the Gardens they generally have no reason to, while at worst Red wins since Black needs a lot of things to go their way to stand a chance.