Badass Versus Thread

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

so people have been saying that the FSN servants have been severely outclassed in power by more recent servants.

thoughts on this? i personally disagree to an extreme extent.

and this is not even counting the new classes for those servants that FGO gave us

Honestly the only one that feels like a complete joke nowadays is Heracles. God Hand has been a joke since F/SN, not having access to Nine Lives is a ridiculous nerf when compared to newer Berserkers and everyone nowadays has Madness Enhancement EX because the writers realized that Berserkers who are only capable of communicating in autistic screeching are not compelling characters.
This is mainly an issue because he's a pure ungabunga power Servant who hasn't had any upgrades since the source material was published.
Gil and Artoria are direct ungabunga overwhelming power comparisons.

Gil didn't need upgrades to begin with but still got major wank in CCC and and a bit more in FGO so he's still solidly among the strongest.

Artoria was massively nerfed in F/SN so she could appear as an underdog but she's a planetbusting alien killer with unlimited mana and probably the strongest NP ever (it'll be upgraded even more soon enough) and has always had the Avalon card ("I may have lost this powerlevel debate, but if my waifu just had Avalon she could beat literally anybody!") to pull.

Cu has remained relevant as a fantastic duelist with a NP that can't work in an actual story but shuts down many hypothetical matchups instantly. Plus he has the cockroach approach of always running away and being essentially immune to most ranged attacks. You can always support your pub arguments among your Ulster loyalist buddies by using antediluvian statements like "Cu is the third fastest Lancer!" which make zero sense nowadays but have never been explicitly retconned.

Medusa isn't very impressive physically but Cybele is still a super busted instawin against a huge chunk of the roster and while Bellerophon never gets to do anything, it only looks bad because it had to face the biggest author favorite sword ever.

Emiya has always been supposedly unimpressive but this has never been supported by any logic. He's still an endless bag of tricks, like a discount Gilgamesh including a lesser version of his crippling personality flaw (Gil literally never ever being "serious" vs Emiya really wanting to hit people with his dumb scimitars when he could be much more effective at range or when using other projected weapons).

Medea is "bag of tricks, Caster version". Rule Breaker is an author fiat weapon that can work however the fuck the writer likes and unlike the other supposed top tier mages she can actually cast spells without relying on gimmicks like 72 endlessly regenerating demon gods or literally endless mana. Shame on you robot Solomon and spellblade Merlin.

Hassan has never been amazing but he's not bad. His greatest strengths are still his professional mindset and tactical thinking. He could solo a Grail War if these stories were about seven Kiritsugus facing each other (thank god they're not). Also Apocrypha handily told us Hassans are really good.

Kojiro gets downplayed by F/SN "look at this idiot, he's nobody, pay him no attention, he just likes swinging at birds, what an idiot, also he can reach true magic because he likes to swing at birds" but in my opinion he's the single most skilled sword user we've seen. Even the hyper-wanked Musashi with her dumb Mystic Eye and superior nippon steel hypersword can barely stand against this dude who has no mystical assists and just likes swinging at birds.

[fire_mountain_30]

The thing is, most NPs need a short window for the servant to power up and if you attack them halfway, they tend to just stop the activation (Siegfried stopping Karna's Brahmastra activation when they first met and Saber not even trying to use it on Kojirou and saying that she would be killed if she gave him the opening definetely come to mind. Also Gil losing his arm in the anime).

Most Servants arent going to get the chance when a crazy strong and fast enraged Demigod that doesnt need to think about self preservation rushes them with a rock and can probably smash them to bits once he gets his hand on them

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

yeah but caliburn took away half his lives
literally any A-rank beam will dominate a screeching retard because lol no martial skill

oh yeah emiya with no mana and no UBW killed him six times didn't he lmao

[Ronove]

Have kept up with powercreep:
Gilgamesh
Saber
Needed new forms to keep up:
Saber again
Cu
Medusa
Was treated kind of poorly from the start:
Kojiro
Medea
True Assassin
Emiya
LOL:
Heracles

[Yggdrasil]

no mana and no UBW

What.

[Menwearpink]

yeah but caliburn took away half his lives
literally any A-rank beam will dominate a screeching retard because lol no martial skill

oh yeah emiya with no mana and no UBW killed him six times didn't he lmao

Except he can parry and punch an A+ sword explosion to make it not even kill him once as shown by Archer shooting him with Caladbolg in UBW. Saying that any old beam can kill him is the real lol. Most servants take way more damage from stuff when it hits them clean to begin with but it’s a different level with Herc. You can’t just nuke him to begin a fight. A damaged Herc that’s open is a difficult point to get to and if that doesn’t finish him good luck.

he also proceeded to take two hits from Artemis’s super laser shot in Lostbelt 5 so if anything things have been reinforcing that Herc is indeed ridiculously hard to kill.

it doesn’t matter that he doesn’t have martial skill as a Berserker because he’s just so overwhelming and that’s never really changed.

the idea that Herc has been powercrept is hilarious, uninformed and untrue really.

*edit*

What in the world is a no mana no UBW Archer. His RM wouldn’t even really be that useful in fighting Herc really compared to projecting choice weapons that would actually interact with him via broken phantasming.

Also Caliburn, the sword that can match Excalibur outputs in proper conditions seems like way above an average A or A+ beam during protagonist moments.

[Lily Emilio]

Herc in LB5 was magically reinforced by Medea btw, we don't know how many hits he can withstand without Medea's super magecraft.

He is indeed extremely hard to kill tho.

[Menwearpink]

Honestly being able to shield others from one with your body is impressive as is even with help and buffs.

[AAM1232]

Define keeping up with powercreep though, since it's not like a lot of the new Servants are that much better than Artoria, Cu and Herc. Gil is in a different scale, and the rest just fell into their slots with their own peers.

I mean Okeanos still had Herk the miniboss running around and needing literal weaponised Divine intervention to be beaten.

[SpoonyViking]

It's less an issue of power creep and more an issue of different (perhaps more lax) standards by newer writers - like "Semiramis' magic can break through M. Res. A", or how Lancelot retains all his skills as a Berserker, or how nearly all FGO Casters have some variant of a beam as Noble Phantasms, etc.

Those aren't necessarily power creep, though; in most Grail Wars Semiramis would be a highly-impractical Servant, for instance, and Lancelot needs EAM just to keep up.

- - - Updated - - -

I do think Ozymandias is stupidly overpowered, though - and I do mean stupidly, since his toys are basically just generic pharaoh stuff (as opposed to things that reflect him specifically) AND he's probably most famous as a symbol of ruined hubris in modern times.

[AAM1232]

I mean making vaguely defined arguments that don't really consider all of the Servants is par for the course, even if it's misleading.

[Reign]

I wonder if a better way to put it would be spectacle creep, rather than power creep exactly. Newer Servants may not necessarily be stronger but they tend to be flashier than something as simple as a beam sword or guy with invulnerable body.

[eddyak]

I wonder if a better way to put it would be spectacle creep, rather than power creep exactly. Newer Servants may not necessarily be stronger but they tend to be flashier than something as simple as a beam sword or guy with invulnerable body.

They also aren't restricted to crap Masters, they aren't sitting in the middle of a crowded city and the universe has been expanded, so they've had to adjust for the various shenanigans Servants can accomplish when you factor in the vague requirements of "feats accomplished or attributed to them".

[SpoonyViking]

so they've had to adjust for the various shenanigans Servants can accomplish when you factor in the vague requirements of "feats accomplished or attributed to them".

I'd say that's a part of the looser standards. F/SN Servants generally feel very restrained when compared to the myths, particularly Servants like Gilgamesh and Herakles. Stay Night also has more of a feeling of "this is the truth behind the myths", unlike works like Apocrypha.

[Blastedspider]

I think Herakles is actually supposed to be weakened by a Berserker vessel. Normally you'd put a weak Heroic Spirit in that class to make trade-off worth it but in his case it is unclear if Mad Enchancement actually does anything for Herc (you could argue that the stats we usually see are default for him).

yeah but caliburn took away half his lives
literally any A-rank beam will dominate a screeching retard because lol no martial skill

oh yeah emiya with no mana and no UBW killed him six times didn't he lmao

Caliburn is supposed to be A+. And how many Heroic Spirits would have a lot of those? Any normal Heroic Spirit would be screwed in 1v1 scenario.

[You]

I wonder if a better way to put it would be spectacle creep, rather than power creep exactly. Newer Servants may not necessarily be stronger but they tend to be flashier than something as simple as a beam sword or guy with invulnerable body.

Servants increasingly as set pieces rather than characters
e.g. Hector in LB5

[Yggdrasil]

Servants increasingly as set pieces rather than characters
e.g. Hector in LB5

That's REALLY not fair to point that with LB5 excellent use of Servants as characters.

[AAM1232]

Isn't it? Hector was pretty much set up for 2 self-sacrifices, his own (via being called by Achilles) and then Mandricardo's big highlight with a NP he never would have normally. He's a plot device rather than an actual character here.

[Yggdrasil]

Isn't it? Hector was pretty much set up for 2 self-sacrifices, his own (via being called by Achilles) and then Mandricardo's big highlight with a NP he never would have normally. He's a plot device rather than an actual character here.

Even more because he is a plot device. I think something like Cursed Arm Hassan in HF is more an example of "Servant used as a set piece rather than a character". Hector in LB5 is never meant to be a character at all, no more than, let say, Zelretch in the HF finale.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

[SPOILER]Honestly the only one that feels like a complete joke nowadays is Heracles. God Hand has been a joke since F/SN, not having access to Nine Lives is a ridiculous nerf when compared to newer Berserkers and everyone nowadays has Madness Enhancement EX because the writers realized that Berserkers who are only capable of communicating in autistic screeching are not compelling characters.
This is mainly an issue because he's a pure ungabunga power Servant who hasn't had any upgrades since the source material was published.
Gil and Artoria are direct ungabunga overwhelming power comparisons.

Gil didn't need upgrades to begin with but still got major wank in CCC and and a bit more in FGO so he's still solidly among the strongest.

Artoria was massively nerfed in F/SN so she could appear as an underdog but she's a planetbusting alien killer with unlimited mana and probably the strongest NP ever (it'll be upgraded even more soon enough) and has always had the Avalon card ("I may have lost this powerlevel debate, but if my waifu just had Avalon she could beat literally anybody!") to pull.

Cu has remained relevant as a fantastic duelist with a NP that can't work in an actual story but shuts down many hypothetical matchups instantly. Plus he has the cockroach approach of always running away and being essentially immune to most ranged attacks. You can always support your pub arguments among your Ulster loyalist buddies by using antediluvian statements like "Cu is the third fastest Lancer!" which make zero sense nowadays but have never been explicitly retconned.

Medusa isn't very impressive physically but Cybele is still a super busted instawin against a huge chunk of the roster and while Bellerophon never gets to do anything, it only looks bad because it had to face the biggest author favorite sword ever.

Emiya has always been supposedly unimpressive but this has never been supported by any logic. He's still an endless bag of tricks, like a discount Gilgamesh including a lesser version of his crippling personality flaw (Gil literally never ever being "serious" vs Emiya really wanting to hit people with his dumb scimitars when he could be much more effective at range or when using other projected weapons).

Medea is "bag of tricks, Caster version". Rule Breaker is an author fiat weapon that can work however the fuck the writer likes and unlike the other supposed top tier mages she can actually cast spells without relying on gimmicks like 72 endlessly regenerating demon gods or literally endless mana. Shame on you robot Solomon and spellblade Merlin.

Hassan has never been amazing but he's not bad. His greatest strengths are still his professional mindset and tactical thinking. He could solo a Grail War if these stories were about seven Kiritsugus facing each other (thank god they're not). Also Apocrypha handily told us Hassans are really good.

Kojiro gets downplayed by F/SN "look at this idiot, he's nobody, pay him no attention, he just likes swinging at birds, what an idiot, also he can reach true magic because he likes to swing at birds" but in my opinion he's the single most skilled sword user we've seen. Even the hyper-wanked Musashi with her dumb Mystic Eye and superior nippon steel hypersword can barely stand against this dude who has no mystical assists and just likes swinging at birds.[SPOILER]

Pretty much this, but I'd like to comment on some things.

1. The real problem with Herc's powercreep is that no other Berserker has to quite follow the same rules. Herc was summoned without a freaking weapon. Even Rin was surprised that his NP wasn't the Bow of Hydra. This gave some indication that Berserkers have object-related NPs sealed. All successive Berserkers followed Lancelot's trend of having their weapons, but Herc still doesn't for some reason, which his awkward. However, Herc's far from a joke. Nasu has consistently wanked off Godhand, and has stated nothing short of an Ex-rank NP would one-shot him, so he wins 99.9% of 1v1 fights regardless of the other powercreep.

2. The statement for Cu was about skill, not speed, so it hasn't been powercrept yet, and no, nothing puts Achilles or Karna as his equal in that department once again. Cu was just better than other Lancers in speed generally.

3. Medusa is impressive physically, she just sucks in martial skill, but is agile, and has good riding skills. Also, Bellerophone remains a high-level mount, with one of the best defenses in the series.

4. You have the exact opinion of where I think EMIYA's at. To expand, the implication was that EMIYA wasn't impressive stat-wise. Side Material outright said that EMIYA fit the Archer mold. Complete Material 3's statement was that he had low basic abilities, which is what ranks measure. This adds a lot of context to statements like Extra saying he's not that strong of a servant, or Extella Link further specifying that he's "not conventionally strong." People that argue against him simply blew up the "not a strong servant" and "UBW isn't effective on any servant beside Gil"(which detestably was contradicted by the source that brought it up, and was directly contradicted by Both Complete material 2 and 3) far beyond their intended meaning while ignoring virtually every feat he's ever had or other character statements about him. Going by Apocrypha's assessments of Archers, EMIYA would be on the higher end since he has accuracy and range, while having firepower with projection magic, all while not being truly weak in CQB. He's not in the top tier, but he's not simply average either.

Both Gil and EMIYA have been power creeping actually. Gil got his super-clairvoyance, and more divine constructs if we're looking at Kaleid, and EMIYA seems to easily project divine constructs, albeit degraded ( Nameless on mooncell, MiyuVerse Shirou). At this point, not having divine constructs within UBW just means he has to always make them from scratch and being extra-degraded.

5. Kojiro was never downplayed in FSN. He was the dominant CQB fighter outside of Herc. Successive sourcebooks make him more impressive as well.

yeah but caliburn took away half his lives
literally any A-rank beam will dominate a screeching retard because lol no martial skill

oh yeah emiya with no mana and no UBW killed him six times didn't he lmao

No statement that EMIYA did this with no mana or UBW. We have no knowledge if UBW was used or not. The only thing we know about EMIYA VS Herc was that it was largely CQB. It's entirely possible he was mixing up CQB with arrow shots though. MenwearPink establishes this, but Herc did counter Caladbolg, which is, bear-minimum, the level that you described, without ME, unless he somehow broke out of Illya's restraints. He really is dominant, it's just that there's a couple of really OP things he can't deal with.

Except he can parry and punch an A+ sword explosion to make it not even kill him once as shown by Archer shooting him with Caladbolg in UBW. Saying that any old beam can kill him is the real lol. Most servants take way more damage from stuff when it hits them clean to begin with but it’s a different level with Herc. You can’t just nuke him to begin a fight. A damaged Herc that’s open is a difficult point to get to and if that doesn’t finish him good luck.

he also proceeded to take two hits from Artemis’s super laser shot in Lostbelt 5 so if anything things have been reinforcing that Herc is indeed ridiculously hard to kill.

it doesn’t matter that he doesn’t have martial skill as a Berserker because he’s just so overwhelming and that’s never really changed.

the idea that Herc has been powercrept is hilarious, uninformed and untrue really.

*edit*

What in the world is a no mana no UBW Archer. His RM wouldn’t even really be that useful in fighting Herc really compared to projecting choice weapons that would actually interact with him via broken phantasming.

Also Caliburn, the sword that can match Excalibur outputs in proper conditions seems like way above an average A or A+ beam during protagonist moments.

Well, as I state above, Herc is powercrept in the sense that he has restrictions that no other Berserker after him is subject to.

UBW would be useful. Unless we're seriously making the argument that fake NP barrages as arrows don't matter, despite the existence of things like Kazikli Bey, Phoebus Catastrophe, and Heavenly Demon Rain. Not to mention that the Da Vinci event has EMIYA outright saying his weapons aren't inferior to their originals "in numbers" indicating they hit as hard, but have some sort of conceptual degradation (and being fragile). If nothing else, the sword rains would be a good complement to his weapon switching, and could be used defensively, like how Gil did it to Saber.