Badass Versus Thread

[Lily Emilio]

Dont forget that stheno can compare current HS altera with how she was 14k year ago
Thats kinda hard to do if you dont know how she was 14k years ago.

Not really, if you have a record of it planted in your memories just like Tamamo you will know about it without actually being there.

Love and yearning isnt that far off.
If personification of love can be kamigami then personification of yearning can be kamigami too.

You still don't get it. Gods, demons, dinosaurs, elephants, sphinxes, puppies, etc... can have love and the concept of love of all beings = the god of love. It's a natural thing that existed before humans even existed. The gorgon sisters are specifically man-made deities. And going by Gil's definition, they do not belong to the category of nature gods. Also Da Vinci said this:

The ones who controlled this era were not humans, but gods. Or maybe you could call them nature, or concepts? There were gods in the air, the earth, and the sea. Love was a god, hatred was a god, even war and death were gods. The laws of nature were authorities wielded by the gods. The world belonged to the gods. You could even say it was the gods.

So any gods who came from humans wishes are not of this category.

[castor212]

Knowing isnt the same as forgetting and remembering. Medusa forgetting and Stheryale remembering stuffs from 14k years ago means they have to actually be there.

And stheno also said concepts, not necessarily nature, as gods who got their asses kicked by Sefar.

I disagree. Just rewatched the Gilgamesh scene to make sure and he clearly said both categories are kamigami, not shinrei. Pure nature gods are only one part of the whole kamigami. Those born from human worship is still the package of the whole kamigami deal.

[Iceblade44]

Which means if you manage to resist the flame, you resist the RM -> my point about resisting the flame from the very beginning.

But what indication is there that Quertz can resist it? That she can survive the God scorching flames? So far as I know Quertz has no defensive abilities outside of Null Good. As I said above I can except it if she has a reason to be able to resist it, but if it's only just "just because" and saying that the NP won't effect Gods because Gods are so great despite it being the designated target is gonna feel dumb to me. Now I'm not saying that it's impossible, I just want a reason. I can accept Enkidu not working on Tiamat because while it says the chains get stronger the higher the targets divinity is, there's nothing there saying it's unbreakable. As long as you have a certain threshold of strength you can break the chains despite the difficulty, like what Herk did in SN, it's just hard to do because the thing is stacked against you. So i can accept Quertz being able to resist the damage inflicted on her by the RM, just give me a reason other then stating her to be the thing that the NP actually is good against.

[Lily Emilio]

Knowing isnt the same as forgetting and remembering. Medusa forgetting and Stheryale remembering stuffs from 14k years ago means they have to actually be there.

Tamamo also remembers the stuffs from 14k years ago when she is born tens of thousands of years later. Doesn't mean she was actually there.

And stheno also said concepts, not necessarily nature, as gods who got their asses kicked by Sefar.

Nature things are also concepts dude. Like, I never said nature =/= concepts. We knew for many years that gods are concepts personified lol.

I disagree. Just rewatched the Gilgamesh scene to make sure and he clearly said both categories are kamigami, not shinrei. Pure nature gods are only one part of the whole kamigami. Those born from human worship is still the package of the whole kamigami deal.

If you use kamigami as the umbrella term then yes. But here we're talking about the nature concepts being personified which was said to be the ones who jobbed against Sefar.

- - - Updated - - -

just give me a reason other then stating her to be the thing that the NP actually is good against.

What if I tell you that Winged Snake also reduces damage taken from Neutral and Evil enemies by half?

[castor212]

Tamamo also remembers the stuffs from 14k years ago when she is born tens of thousands of years later. Doesn't mean she was actually there

But thats because she is connected to Amaterasu who already existed 14k years ago, being her bunrei and stuffs
there has to be someone connected to you that actually was there 14k years ago for you to know about it

the gorgon sisters has no such connections

If you use kamigami as the umbrella term then yes. But here we're talking about the nature concepts being personified which was said to be the ones who jobbed against Sefar.

then shouldve use the term nature true divine spirits instead just true divine spirit
is my point
because stheuryale counts as true divine spirits.

- - - Updated - - -

well anyway, i realized i already made my point through in that not all kamigami is necessarily superduper strong as fuck and your initial term usage is misleading

[Iceblade44]

What if I tell you that Winged Snake also reduces damage taken from Neutral and Evil enemies by half?

Then I would say it be more diffiuclt for Nobu to beat Quertz and that it be more downhill for her, tho that it does just half damage it should still effect her, not drastically tho so Qurtz should still have enough strength to pummel Nobu.

[Lily Emilio]

the gorgon sisters has no such connections

Are you 100% sure? What if they are bunrei of some alien snakes who saw the incident? Man-made gods are also based on existed things just like nature gods so it's not impossible, is my point.

then shouldve use the term nature true divine spirits instead just true divine spirit
is my point

The whole kamigami distinction only came about recently when talking about nature gods so I assume everyone knew what it refers to tbh.

[castor212]

Are you 100% sure?.

Yes, because we know from scenes in HA they are created purely from zero as immortal idols, not bunrei. The snake parts are addition from various cirscumtances.

[Lily Emilio]

Yes, because we know from scenes in HA they are created purely from zero as immortal idols, not bunrei. The snake parts are addition from various cirscumtances.

Foxtail said Medusa is originally an Earth Goddess. So if I were to guess, the Gorgon sisters are based off an Earth Goddess who was presented during the Sefar incident and retained that goddess's memories.

[castor212]

Actually no, that was in HA too. Earth goddess is an attribute applied to their divinity when they were created. They were not based off an earth goddess, they simply have the attribute of one. PLenty other goddesses have that attribute too in their divinity.

Medusa is "originally" an earth mother goddess because before athena took away her divinity, she was one together with her sisters.

[Lily Emilio]

Actually no, that was in HA too. Earth goddess is an attribute applied to them when they were created. They were not based off an earth goddess, they simply have the attribute of one.

Yeah I forgot that part. But that still doesn't rule out the possibility of their image being based on a source being. Even if you created them out of thin air, you must base them on something or someone. I'm no Greek myth expert but iirc in legend they are monstrous childrens of the 2 primordial deities Keto and Phorcys, which makes perfect sense why they have monstrous attritbutes here.

[castor212]

thats IRLmyth.
inNasuverse, they are purely from yearnings, as HA scene gave us
and uh they dont have monstrous attribute as a goddess. thats a later addition from external factor


im just saying, the facts that we actually know as of now pointing to them actually being there 14k years ago outweigh the hypothetical possibility that some other hypothetical goddess who have same image with them transfers her memories to them, who wasnt even her bunrei. not even considering it being too vague and too stretching of a connection, unlike tamamo's clear bunrei connection with amaterasu.

[Lily Emilio]

Do you think Sut-Typhon has anything to do with Yog-Sothoth IRL? Yet they are apparently the same thing in nasuverse. Point is that considering the bizarre nature of how gods in Nasuverse relate to each other, you can't know for sure. We'll have to agree to disagree on this because I think we're just going in circles here. If it turns out that I'm completely wrong then so be it, but I'll stick to my doubts.

[castor212]

Do you think Sut-Typhon has anything to do with Yog-Sothoth IRL?

Yes. Thats IRL reference to Kenneth Grant and Aleister Crowley thesis on the black magic, where they both associates and equates Lovecrat's Yog-Sothoth with Sut-Typhon (or Sut-Thoth) and the Death Angel.

you can't know for sure

to be fair, you also cant know for sure the Gorgons wasnt there 14k years ago

but yeah, lets agree to disagree here

[Lily Emilio]

Yes. Thats IRL reference to Kenneth Grant and Aleister Crowley thesis on the black magic, where they both associates and equates Lovecrat's Yog-Sothoth with Sut-Typhon (or Sut-Thoth) and the Death Angel.

I knew about this, which is why I brought it up. Unlike the case of Shingon Buddhism merging gods and buddhas where these religions actually have some similarities (bunrei are also in buddhism under a slightly different concept for example), Thelema has literally every kind of concepts from other religions eventhough the source deities sometimes share very little similarities. It's an extreme example of religious fusions. Therefore, when such things made its way to Nasuverse, my doubts have basis.

[castor212]

I know that your doubt has a basis to it.

But TM equating 2 different entities, one who is less myth more literature, by means of actually existing IRL reference is not stretching the connection, its just using what is already there IRL.


Saying the connection of a hypothetical goddess being the base of the gorgon sisters (with a scene saying otherwise to boot) is as strong as bunrei connection, otoh, is stretching it too much.

Its just that when your doubt use hypothetical case as an argument against ingame scenes that has implied and said otherwise, it feels flimsy at best.

- - - Updated - - -

Well,.like you have your doubts, i have my beliefs.
Anw lets just drop this.

[Lily Emilio]

Saying the connection of a hypothetical goddess being the base of the gorgon sisters (with a scene saying otherwise to boot) is as strong as bunrei connection, otoh, is stretching it too much.

My theory is that Greek myth's Keto and Phorcys are also aliens who acted as basis of Greek gods like the ones who fought Sefar. They gave birth to alien snake monster trio. The trio saw the Sefar incident. Later on when human wishes gave birth to the idol sisters, eventhough they are 100% artificial, they got mixed up with that alien snake monster trio due to legends just like the Greek gods. This theory has basis in both the in-universe fact that we knew aliens are prototypes of Greek gods AND IRL legend depicted the gorgon sisters as children of those 2 deities. So to me it's not even as stretchy as an alien titan ended up being Attila the Hun, but you are free to think otherwise.

Anw lets just drop this.

I already did. Starting now.

[GundamFSN]

Do we know anything about how humans came about?

Would be funny if we came from Alien God Monkey. Tho I guess we could also came from Tiamat...

[Iceblade44]

I think some one in Babylon mentioned Gods created humans as cheap labor or something along those lines

[Iceblade44]

Bored, so pairing time.

Ko Gil vs Rama