Badass Versus Thread

[eddyak]

If we treat AoF as a shield, then that begs the question of can go Gae Bolg go around shields? Obviously not, as Nasu's statement that good enough shields work would be meaningless otherwise.

Ah, but what if the shield has to physically get in the way of GB's curse before the stab? Or if it has to make contact with the stab itself to counter the mana spent with its own mana?

Let's say it works like in Ufo animu land. The spear shoots out, opponent gets a chance to react to it. Spear is blocked, by sword or armour. If its mana is neutralised by a specific attempt to stop it, it's stopped right there, and there's an awkward moment where the two sit there staring at each other because the super one-hit kill move just didn't do anything. If not, spear gets to rolls for initiative or someshit. Spear tries again, different area. If not blocked by specific thing, spear keeps trying.

It's not as though Gae Bolg's path has to be anywhere near straight- for about a bajillion years its CG was literally it bending in whatever the fuck direction it wants. Look at HA. It doesn't just bend once, it goes bloody mental, flies all over the place before it gets to its target.

Also, the curse thing would suggest GB can be dispelled by a good enough magus of any sort- just dissolve the curse before it hits, or dissolve the curse after it hits but before the stab comes out. Which means funnily enough that Medea would be the best opponent in this case.

[You]

Ah, but what if the shield has to physically get in the way of GB's curse before the stab? Or if it has to make contact with the stab itself to counter the mana spent with its own mana?

Let's say it works like in Ufo animu land. The spear shoots out, opponent gets a chance to react to it. Spear is blocked, by sword or armour. If its mana is neutralised by a specific attempt to stop it, it's stopped right there, and there's an awkward moment where the two sit there staring at each other because the super one-hit kill move just didn't do anything. If not, spear gets to rolls for initiative or someshit. Spear tries again, different area. If not blocked by specific thing, spear keeps trying.

It's not as though Gae Bolg's path has to be anywhere near straight- for about a bajillion years its CG was literally it bending in whatever the fuck direction it wants. Look at HA. It doesn't just bend once, it goes bloody mental, flies all over the place before it gets to its target.

Also, the curse thing would suggest GB can be dispelled by a good enough magus of any sort- just dissolve the curse before it hits, or dissolve the curse after it hits but before the stab comes out. Which means funnily enough that Medea would be the best opponent in this case.

Yes the curse would need to make contact with the shield.

The spear bends in insane ways because the curse has been afflicted onto the target. Block the curse and the spear can only follow its initial action.
Even in the case of Saber she was still hit with the curse but dodged the "pierce heart part" due to her luck which is why the spear still landed and moved in insane ways. It's possible to not fully block the curse/dodge the curse as also seen with Jeanne and Jack and get "chip" damage.

Yes, that's the case with most curses.

The ability's effective range is limited, so if one retreats past this distance and uses long-range attacks, Assassin is helpless. Also, Delusional Heartbeat is a curse, so it may be ineffective against Servants with high Magic Resistance, while targets with high Luck may be able to evade it. Additionally, there is the critical fact that the heart organ is not the vital point of a Servant.

Q: Is there any way to defend against "Delusional Heartbeat: Zabaniya?"
A: One can simply stay out of True Assassin’s range, have high enough MGI to dispel the cursed mirror image heart that Zabaniya creates, or have high enough Luck to avoid it without any problem.

It's just that Gae Bolg is so high tier, it's very difficult to resist and since it contains a lot of magical energy (while still being efficient) its difficult to block.

"What the hell is he!?"
An overwhelming amount of magical energy is flowing into the guy in blue.
Kiritsugu showed me once what it's like to draw in magical energy from the surroundings.
It was a beautiful magic that impressed even an amateur like me.

But that thing is different.
Just as even the simple task of drinking water could seem ugly if it goes too far, what he is doing is so excessive that anyone with knowledge of magical energy would hate it.

""
He's going to die.
The guy in red is going to die.
It's a blow with that much concentrated magical energy. There's no way he'll be able to survive it.

But yes Medea with her ryuudouji reserves should be able to make a shield that blocks gae bolg thrust.

[You]

From what I gather:

Example 1. Lancer shouts Gae Bolg while thrusting spear into air. Target is Servant A with E rank Luck.
Result 1. Curse hits target. Spear zig zags around the place and stabs Servant A in the heart.

Example 2. Lancer shouts Gae Bolg while thrusting spear into air. Target is Servant B with B rank Luck and A rank Instinct.
Result 2. Curse hits target but partially dodged due to luck. Spear zig zags around the place and stabs Servant B in the shoulder.

Example 3. Lancer shouts Gae Bolg while thrusting spear into air. Target is Servant C with A++ rank Luck and A++ Instinct.
Result 3. Curse completely dodged due to the luck. Spear is thrust into the air.

Example 4. Lancer shouts Gae Bolg while thrusting spear into air. Target is Servant D who deploys and invokes true name of NP shield A++.
Result 4. Curse hits shield and is dissipated. Spear is thrust into the air.

Example 5. Lancer shouts Gae Bolg while thrusting spear into air. Target is Servant E with E rank luck and his back is facing Lancer and deploys NP shield A++ in front of himself.
Result 5. Curse hits unprotected back. Spear zig zags and stabs Servant E's heart

Example 6. Lancer shouts Gae Bolg while thrusting spear into air. Target is Servant F with E rank luck and his back is facing Lancer and deploys NP shield A++ with curse resistance in front of himself.
Result 6. Shield is a lightning rod for the curse. Depending on activation time of shield residual damage may be present.

So if Lancer fires the Gae Bolg curse at Siegfried's spot. The spear should pierce his heart.
If Lancer fires the Gae Bolg curse at Siegfried's pecs. I doubt the spear would pierce his heart.
Which is why knowing your opponent's name is important.

[castor212]

legitimate question here
why would shield with curse resistance become a curse rod
that is, does the curse resistance here meaning giving resist to the user instead of the shield itself being curse resistance?

[eddyak]

So if Lancer fires the Gae Bolg curse at Siegfried's spot. The spear should pierce his heart.
If Lancer fires the Gae Bolg curse at Siegfried's pecs. I doubt the spear would pierce his heart.
Which is why knowing your opponent's name is important.

Here's the thing, though- Gae Bolg doesn't stab you in the pecs. Gae Bolg warps causality so that the spear's already in your heart. The stab's just an aftereffect. There's no aiming at his front or back because the spear will take whichever route it needs to get there. So unless you're big enough that the spear needs to take a stroll to reach your weakspot, it's gonna get in there.

[SpoonyViking]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Armor of Fafnir isn't concept denial like God Hand, it's straight damage reduction, right? In that case, wouldn't Gáe Bolg's "the heart is always pierced" curse overwhelm AoF's mechanics?

[Iceblade44]

It is just damage reduction yes but the argument here isnt about the concept denial part. It is it as a shield. Rho Aias doesnt have anything about concept denial but it still works because what it is, is layers on top layers of defense. So the question is would the spear stop as the curse hits AoF or does it go directly past to the heart and find a way through.

[SpoonyViking]

It's not just being a shield which matters, it's having boatloads of magical energy to cancel the curse, isn't it?

[castor212]

槍の魔力を上回る純粋な防壁を用意する

its being able to surpasses the magic energy of the spear
the kanji used is 防壁 (protective wall/bulwark)
doesnt really have to be shield shape or whatever

[You]

legitimate question here
why would shield with curse resistance become a curse rod
that is, does the curse resistance here meaning giving resist to the user instead of the shield itself being curse resistance?

Good question. I don't really know.
But it's the case that something with curse resistance was able to work as a lightning rod. Not really sure the reasoning why it has curse resistance maybe because it's an angel's blessing?

“Unfortunately, I possess something with a resistance against curses.”

“…That flag, huh?”

Assassin of Black nodded in understanding. That flag had absorbed Assassin of Black’s attack like a lightning rod. Her preparations hadn’t been meaningless; the evil spirit she had put into the child that she had kidnapped within the town had borne fruit, making Ruler’s Noble Phantasm slightly delayed in its activation.

As a result, the curse had definitely adversely affected the Servant before her eyes—but she was still alive.

[You]

Here's the thing, though- Gae Bolg doesn't stab you in the pecs. Gae Bolg warps causality so that the spear's already in your heart. The stab's just an aftereffect. There's no aiming at his front or back because the spear will take whichever route it needs to get there. So unless you're big enough that the spear needs to take a stroll to reach your weakspot, it's gonna get in there.

For instance Finn Shots stop your heart. If you get a Finn Shot to the face your heart stops. If you get a Finn Shot to a leg your heart stops. If you get a Finn Shot to your pecs your heart stops.

In the same way, if the Gae Bolg curse hits your right leg, the spear goes and pierces your heart. If the Gae Bolg curse hits your face, the spear goes and pierces your heart.

The best analog is Maria the Ripper at full strength because it has exactly the same mechanics.

The victim dies—she is dissected, she has her organs plundered, she loses her blood and, as a result, she dies.

First, a ‘murder’ occurs, followed by ‘death’, and finally, the ‘reason’ for it is drastically late in catching up; that’s what makes it a truly instantaneous attack. Counterattacking, dodging and resisting are all meaningless.

....

…If Assassin of Black had made one miscalculation.

It would be that she viewed this woman as just an ordinary Servant. True, Maria the Ripper was an unequaled Noble Phantasm that delivered instant death in a single blow. All the conditions had been achieved as well—‘night’, ‘within the fog’, and a ‘woman’.

But even if one brought about a phenomenon that twisted cause and effect, a foundation, something to serve as the raw material for it, was still needed.

In this case, Maria the Ripper was, at its essence, a [curse]—the collected grudges of thousands of unborn children. That was the true nature of this fearsome Noble Phantasm.

I think we can all once again say "higashide just wanted to use something from FSN again and is throwing in our faces." Unmistakably, this repackaged Gae Bolg. Which for us right now is good.

Therefore, Assassin was one step faster.

Ruler’s Noble Phantasm was slightly late in activating.

But, even so, that grudge did not reach Ruler.

The rushing black grudge tried to possess Ruler, and at the same time tried to split open her abdomen—but Ruler’s Noble Phantasm activated immediately before it could.

“Kuh…!!”

An intense shock ran through the holy flag. As expected, it couldn’t absorb all of the curse and the damage, and numbness ran through her entire body. Different from Berserker of Red’s attack, which was a simple torrent of energy, this was a curse-type Noble Phantasm that followed some form of rules.

We can see that the curses from this cause effect reversal NPs have forms just like curses such as gandr.
Therefore it can hit certain body parts.

[Deathhappens]

Hold up, I thought Jeanne nosold Maria the Ripper due to MR:EX? The anime didn't even show her glowing, let alone a tivating Luminosite Eternelle.I mean yeah, lolanime, but that's a significant diversion, not just a misunderstanding.

[pinetree]

The answer really is lolanime I don't know what you expect

They changed most of the Jack fight

[Deathhappens]

I expected nothing better and yet I'm still disappointed.

[castor212]

Good question. I don't really know.
But it's the case that something with curse resistance was able to work as a lightning rod. Not really sure the reasoning why it has curse resistance maybe because it's an angel's blessing?

this is just me and i have no reason as its basis

but i feel that jeanne's flag is a special snowflake due to its nature

[eddyak]

All NPs are special snowflakes.

[Zurvan]

You say that, but looking at the all beamswords...

[Iceblade44]

But their different beamswords. Now this beam sword is because of accelerated light, this one is because artificial mana, this one is because of searing hatred....

There all special, yet can get redundant

[Urameshi Yūsuke]

Rin Post UBW w/family crest vs Luvia

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

This is because of that one discussion, right? In any case, I still think it'd be a tie because their Crests are quite similar and their magic circuit count is identical.