Badass Versus Thread

[Ronove]

As I repiled to Spoony above, if you limit Karna's burst spam then you must also give Enkidu a Master of similar capacity and stop the guy from using Perfect Form to restore his clay for it to be fair. I'm assuming we're going with servants at their full power rather than one being nerfed because his Master can't provide him enough mana.


Also, he can spam lightning too aside from flame and we don't know the limitation of that.

We are but I thought Karna's burst would also drain his own energy.

Enkidu uses lightning too iirc.

I don't see it happening. Karna only use VS when really needed. He has Brahmastra and Brahmastra Kundala at his disposal. Unless you somehow force him into a stalemate that the only way for him to win is using VS, I don't see him pulling out VS right off the bat. That's also why I asked if the clay spams can force him into using VS instead of just using his other 2 NPs or just sit there and tank them.
Remember, he survived a direct hit from Leo's Gawain's Excalibur Galatine without his armor on after he used VS so you need something at least 10 times stronger than that to achieve the same result.

This would only be necessary if Enkidu ever tried killing Karna in one hit. Damage accrues over time and we saw in that same fight that Gawain could overpower and hurt Karna without Galatine. I'm not saying he's going to pull out VS off the bat however that's where the fight is going to lead eventually to avoid a continued stalemate, which you already stated he would anyway.

Brahmastra is a backup but I don't see it being more powerful than EE.

[Altaris]

Karna never use VS at the start of the fight, why would he do that

Karna also has much better durability because he took only 10% damage and he heals faster than damage is being dealt to him. I don't see Enkidu healing as fast or tanking as much

Karna has no reason to VS unless his Master Command Seal him. Most of the time that he used VS it was either his last resort to save the Master (America or CCC), because he wants to enjoy a limited time duel (against Sieg) or his Master just outright force him (Fox's Tail)

Hell he didn't even use it against his archenemy Arjuna during his life and in America, so there's no way he do it against Enkidu unless his Master went full retard

Brahmastra is a backup but I don't see it being more powerful than EE.

It doesn't have to be stronger. He still has his Armor

Damage accrues over time and we saw in that same fight that Gawain could overpower and hurt Karna without Galatine

He doesn't have his Armor against Gawain

[Lily Emilio]

We are but I thought Karna's burst would also drain his own energy.

Enkidu uses lightning too iirc.

His burst also drain his own energy just like any other form of attacks, but so far we only knew it drained the Master's energy alot, not his own. And since we don't know much about the lighning spam either, it's even harder to determine.

This would only be necessary if Enkidu ever tried killing Karna in one hit. Damage accrues over time and we saw in that same fight that Gawain could overpower and hurt Karna without Galatine. I'm not saying he's going to pull out VS off the bat however that's where the fight is going to lead eventually to avoid a continued stalemate, which you already stated he would anyway.

Brahmastra is a backup but I don't see it being more powerful than EE.

That fight with Gawain Karna has no armor on the whole time because he already gave it to Jinako remember? That is my point. If you want Enkidu to do the same to Karna when he still has his armor on, you must do 10x the amount of damage Gawain done in that fight. And that fight is between a servant with a superior Master (Leo) vs a servant whose master didn't even show up. He only used VS because Jinako forced him to do so and he knew that was a very wrong decision since Leo was already spamming def buffs on Gawain and dispelled Karna's own K&K buff. It's a situation where Karna had everything against him, which is not the case here.

Now imagine a Master who is Leo's level and Karna still has his armor on, that's the one Enkidu must fight and I'm sure you don't get to do what Gawain did in this case. Saying that it will eventually lead to a stalemate is not quite right because Enkidu does not have Armor of Fafnir like Sieg. The armor played an important factor in the Sieg vs Karna fight which eventually lead to that stalemate.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

i call racism!

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srsly tho, why would they translate it as high ranking when it clearly said toppu

Would you really translate all loan words 1=1?

"That ice was really tasty."
"Just plug it into the concent."
"The score is tied, we're in a BIG PINCH."
"Yeah, give me a side of fried potato."

[Mcjon01]

"The score is tied, we're in a BIG PINCH."

Unironically cute

[Kotonoha]

Would you really translate all loan words 1=1?

"That ice was really tasty."
"Just plug it into the concent."
"The score is tied, we're in a BIG PINCH."
"Yeah, give me a side of fried potato."

Sounds like every fan translation I've ever read

[castor212]

Would you really translate all loan words 1=1?

"That ice was really tasty."
"Just plug it into the concent."
"The score is tied, we're in a BIG PINCH."
"Yeah, give me a side of fried potato."

i mean when the rest of toppu is top, yes, i expect them too

[Ronove]

His burst also drain his own energy just like any other form of attacks, but so far we only knew it drained the Master's energy alot, not his own. And since we don't know much about the lighning spam either, it's even harder to determine.

Agreed.

That fight with Gawain Karna has no armor on the whole time because he already gave it to Jinako remember? That is my point. If you want Enkidu to do the same to Karna when he still has his armor on, you must do 10x the amount of damage Gawain done in that fight. And that fight is between a servant with a superior Master (Leo) vs a servant whose master didn't even show up. He only used VS because Jinako forced him to do so and he knew that was a very wrong decision since Leo was already spamming def buffs on Gawain and dispelled Karna's own K&K buff. It's a situation where Karna had everything against him, which is not the case here.

Now imagine a Master who is Leo's level and Karna still has his armor on, that's the one Enkidu must fight and I'm sure you don't get to do what Gawain did in this case. Saying that it will eventually lead to a stalemate is not quite right because Enkidu does not have Armor of Fafnir like Sieg. The armor played an important factor in the Sieg vs Karna fight which eventually lead to that stalemate.

I'm aware of that which was the point of my earlier comment

I don't see sword spam doing much. Enkidu's clay should be of higher quality than Siegfried's swings (who scratched the armor quite a bit)

If Gawain could injure break through the armor with regular strikes then I don't see Karna standing much of a chance against sword spam, which is clearly not the case.

My point was that Enkidu doesn't need to settle the fight in one decisive blow but can inch his way there or stalemate, which is why needing 10x more power than Gallatine isn't necessary for him to do either. Siegfried demonstrated that enough repetitive hits allowed him to dent Karna's armor. Siegfried's attack power is weaker than Enkidu's and while he has AoF to help him stalemate? Siegfried is just one strong servant swinging a sword whereas Enkidu has sword spam in the thousands to fight off Karna from a distance, can attain higher parameters to melee or possibly do both. And while Karna has burst, Enkidu has perfect form.

Of course this isn't a disadvantage for Karna because not only is he durable, he's got battle continuation-tier willpower to mitigate injuries. To say Enkidu can't stalemate him is something I doubt greatly

[LJ3]

TBH, I see it likely for stalemate: both are too durable/versatile to die from their usual repertoire so it will boil down eventually to EE vs VS

Its a good fight

[Lily Emilio]

Of course this isn't a disadvantage for Karna because not only is he durable, he's got battle continuation-tier willpower to mitigate injuries. To say Enkidu can't stalemate him is something I doubt greatly

Like I said, you must force him to a point where he MUST use VS to finish you off, it's not just about stalling. It's about forcing him to have no other options to defeat you. I doubt Enkidu has that yet, at least not until we know his other NP in SF. Enkidu will run out of clay for his spams and he needs time to regenerate even with his skill, just remember his fight with Gil in the past. That's when Karna can strikeand he doesn't even need to NP to finish Enkidu off at that point cuz Enkidu doesn't have super armor sticking to his body. So Enkidu must have to pull out some other tactics if he wants to win.

Like you said, if those spams can't do much to Karna with his armor on, Karna won't be at the same state of exhaustion as Enkidu when Enkidu ran out of clay and stop to regenerate. It's not like Karna will just stand there and let all the projectiles hit him either, he has all the time dodge and block them with his spear swings or shoot them down with Brahmastra, just like Enkidu has all the time to maneuver and reposition himself, so Karna is in advantage thanks to his tankiness here. It's not as simple as "Enkidu uses spams, Karna takes X damage", attacks can miss and Enkidu will waste his PP.

Hence the question I've been asking from the start: what can Enkidu do when sword spams failed to work on Karna, what is enough to force Karna into using VS aside from EE, which will have its damage reduced to 10% when hitting Karna and depends on its destructive capability, it might or might not fatal enough to kill Karna right there or force Karna to counter with his own VS. As far as I can tell, we don't have the answer to that yet.

TBH, I see it likely for stalemate: both are too durable/versatile to die from their usual repertoire so it will boil down eventually to EE vs VS

Its a good fight

It's a possibility for sure, but what I wanted to make clear is "can Enkidu force Karna into relying on VS to counter EE". It comes down to whether a EE nuke at 10% power being fatal enough that even Karna's armor can't mitigate it enough to save his life.

If it is enough to kill Karna, he will have no choice but to try and stop it with VS. But if it's not enough then Enkidu is out of options (unless his other NP is something OP) while Karna can just tank it, which was why I brought up the Excaliur Galatine, an A+ NP. If he could tank such a NP without his armor on, you need EE to be at least 10 times stronger to achieve the same result on him with his armor. And because of that, I think Enkidu's EE must achieve an output far stronger than 10x Excalibur Galatine to force Karna into countering with VS instead of tanking it.

[SpoonyViking]

As I repiled to Spoony above, if you limit Karna's burst spam then you must also give Enkidu a Master of similar capacity and stop the guy from using Perfect Form to restore his clay for it to be fair. I'm assuming we're going with servants at their full power rather than one being nerfed because his Master can't provide him enough mana.

I think the fairest assumptions for this fight would be to assume Enkidu with "Strange Fake" 's wolf as their Master and Karna with whichever one of the Red Masters he had before Amakusa hooked him up to the Grail directly.

Remember, he survived a direct hit from Leo's Gawain's Excalibur Galatine without his armor on after he used VS so you need something at least 10 times stronger than that to achieve the same result.

Wouldn't Enkidu's Enuma Elish be enough for the job? I mean, I know it's stronger against certain enemies, but it's not as if it's regular state is weak.

[Ronove]

Like I said, you must force him to a point where he MUST use VS to finish you off, it's not just about stalling. It's about forcing him to have no other options to defeat you. I doubt Enkidu has that yet, at least not until we know his other NP in SF. Enkidu will run out of clay for his spams and he needs time to regenerate even with his skill, just remember his fight with Gil in the past. That's when Karna can strikeand he doesn't even need to NP to finish Enkidu off at that point cuz Enkidu doesn't have super armor sticking to his body. So Enkidu must have to pull out some other tactics if he wants to win.

Like you said, if those spams can't do much to Karna with his armor on, Karna won't be at the same state of exhaustion as Enkidu when Enkidu ran out of clay and stop to regenerate. It's not like Karna will just stand there and let all the projectiles hit him either, he has all the time dodge and block them with his spear swings or shoot them down with Brahmastra, just like Enkidu has all the time to maneuver and reposition himself, so Karna is in advantage thanks to his tankiness here. It's not as simple as "Enkidu uses spams, Karna takes X damage", attacks can miss and Enkidu will waste his PP.

Why are you assuming that Karna's stamina will outlast Enkidu's here? Because I'm working under the assumption that they will be fighting at full power, discounting their NPs but if it comes down to it, Enkidu will use his and if Karna faces that without VS, he's not getting off scot-free. Karna might survive it or even mitigate it with Brahmastra (which will cost him energy) but he'll still be on the losing end and take damage, making the fight worse for him overall.

Karna has tanking advantage but Enkidu has practically everything else.

You're also heavily underestimating how efficacious sword spam is. I fully expect Karna to try to deflect, dodge or even force his way through them...but then consider that someone like Heracles, who is the pinnacle of strength among servants was easily overwhelmed by GoB 12 times over. Altera similarly was disadvantaged by a playing around Gilgamesh using GoB (before the poison). You're expecting that for, quite likely hours-days, of fending off thousands of top-tier divine weapons, burst and possible use of his other NPs, Karna will be in a better condition stamina-wise?

Maybe but I don't know about that.

we don't have the answer to that yet.

I guess, this is what it all comes down to then. So I guess I'll just leave it and agree with inconclusive-Karna having more concrete feats all around.

[Rafflesiac]

Herk's defense works differently than Karna's; Karna always gets damage reduction while Herk just eats A-ranked attacks to the face.

[You]

.but then consider that someone like Heracles, who is the pinnacle of strength among servants was easily overwhelmed by GoB 12 times over.

explicitly while protecting a loli

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"The score is tied, we're in a BIG PINCH."

literally seen that.

[Lily Emilio]

Why are you assuming that Karna's stamina will outlast Enkidu's here? Because I'm working under the assumption that they will be fighting at full power, discounting their NPs but if it comes down to it, Enkidu will use his and if Karna faces that without VS, he's not getting off scot-free. Karna might survive it or even mitigate it with Brahmastra (which will cost him energy) but he'll still be on the losing end and take damage, making the fight worse for him overall.

Karna has tanking advantage but Enkidu has practically everything else.

You're also heavily underestimating how efficacious sword spam is. I fully expect Karna to try to deflect, dodge or even force his way through them...but then consider that someone like Heracles, who is the pinnacle of strength among servants was easily overwhelmed by GoB 12 times over. Altera similarly was disadvantaged by a playing around Gilgamesh using GoB (before the poison). You're expecting that for, quite likely hours-days, of fending off thousands of top-tier divine weapons, burst and possible use of his other NPs, Karna will be in a better condition stamina-wise?

Here's one thing you forgot: Enkidu's weapons are made from his clay, they are not of same quality as weapons coming from GoB.

If any of those weapons slip by Karna's maneuver, the armor will block it for him. Both Herc and Altera don't have that kind of armor like Karna, they always take full damage while Karna only takes 10%, which is a HUGE difference here. You can't even begin to compare them.

Enkidu is using his own body as weapon, he literally damages himself with each clay weapons he sends out as well as spending his own mana, while Karna only has to deal with the damage he might take from the weapons slipping by his maneuver which got their dmg reduced to 10% already. One person who only spend mana to block attacks while taking minimal damage vs one person who damages himself with each of his attack AND losing mana, it's quite obvious who can last longer for me.

[Ronove]

Herk's defense works differently than Karna's; Karna always gets damage reduction while Herk just eats A-ranked attacks to the face.

We're talking about Herc's martial ability to defend against swordspam. GH just shows that even with extra lives herc couldn't just counter them all with melee at the highest level for servants

[You]

We're talking about Herc's martial ability to defend against swordspam. GH just shows that even with extra lives herc couldn't just counter them all with melee at the highest level for servants

And yet Cu was able to hold Gilgamesh off for half a day.
Makes you think that Herc was preoccupied maybe.

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Enkidu is using his own body as weapon, he literally damages himself with each clay weapons he sends out as well as spending his own mana, while Karna only has to deal with the damage he might take from the weapons slipping by his maneuver which got their dmg reduced to 10% already.

It gets instantly regened from the earth though.
In an attrition battle Enkidu isn't going to lose.

[Lily Emilio]

He gets instantly regened from the earth though.
In an attrition battle Enkidu isn't going to lose.

He did ran out of clay vs Gil tho.

[Ronove]

Here's one thing you forgot: Enkidu's weapons are made from his clay, they are not of same quality as weapons coming from GoB.

If any of those weapons slip by Karna's maneuver, the armor will block it for him. Both Herc and Altera don't have that kind of armor like Karna, they always take full damage while Karna only takes 10%, which is a HUGE difference here. You can't even begin to compare them.

Enkidu is using his own body as weapon, he literally damages himself with each clay weapons he sends out as well as spending his own mana, while Karna only has to deal with the damage he might take from the weapons slipping by his maneuver which got their dmg reduced to 10% already. One person who only spend mana to block attacks while taking minimal damage vs one person who damages himself with each of his attack AND losing mana, it's quite obvious who can last longer for me.

Had that debate with Altaris already. GoB is better than Enkiclay because of mystery and alike which gives Gil greater versatility but that didn't allow Gil to overcome Enkidu in a spamfest, suggesting their power is equal. If Gilgamesh can outplay top heroes with just sword spam and no compat advantage/specific ability then Enkidu should be able to do the same.

explicitly while protecting a loli

Was this not anime only? Why would Gil endanger best girl? He needed her heart anyway

And yet Cu was able to hold Gilgamesh off for half a day.

Protection from arrows?

[You]

This is how the battle going to go imo.
Using Apo Karna because Extra Karna's VS is just A++ Rank
1. Steadily escalating battle of attrition.
2. Eventually VS vs Enuma Elish
3. VS wins

Possibility 1
Enkidu's body is completely blown away and its dead.

Possibility 2
Enkidu is not completely destroyed and regens. Karna cannot use Kundala because curse and dies.

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Was this not anime only? Why would Gil endanger best girl? He needed her heart anyway


Protection from arrows?

yes he had protection from arrows
and Herc had God's Hand
If Cu survived that long, then Herc wouldn't do much worse or probably even better.