Badass Versus Thread

[Rafflesiac]

He's not bad but it's thanks to his arms and his tenacity more than his skill that he survives his sparring with Achilles.

[Megas]

The only swordsmen I recall having Kojiro tier sword skills are Musashi and Siegfried (I remember christemo going on about this being in the text of apocrypha one time) . Maybe Lancelot too? I could be missing someone.

[Iceblade44]

The only swordsmen I recall having Kojiro tier sword skills are Musashi and Siegfried (I remember christemo going on about this being in the text of apocrypha one time) . Maybe Lancelot too? I could be missing someone.

I don't think so much on Siegfried. He's good but his sword techniques don't evolve into a who different level of awesome. Plus even in Apo Karna was better then him. Lancelot definitely tho he's a little different compared to Korjiro and Musashi is that while he's super skilled he focuses on his weapon' s abilties and effects then just develop a technique that becomes super human. That said he really is a weapon master, not only KoO but Arondight Overload also shows him taking the normal overwhelmingness that's in the weapon innately and adapting that for personal duels. Um other then him in just swords Munenori definitely, Okita and Izou maybe. I want to say Rama as well but he's more akin to Lancelot then Korjiro. That's all i remember now out of the top of my head.

[castor212]

i dont think sigfried's on kojirou level yet if pure swordsmanship

maybe p close but not there yet

[GundamFSN]

Siegfried being close to Kojiro level skill sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

Can you really call yourself skilled if your Skill is not sublimated into NP-tier.

[8000]

Okay, wasn't sure about what happened with Inshun because I only have a bad translation to go off. Glad I was wrong, it'd be disappointing if he wasn't up to scratch despite having a whole NP for his skill.

I'd still say wait for the mats, there's not enough info to rate him compared to Li. I assume there's a limit to how far his NP can carry him.

Okita would probably beat the other Counter Guardians, anti-world NP ftw.

[SpoonyViking]

He's not bad but it's thanks to his arms and his tenacity more than his skill that he survives his sparring with Achilles.

I see. I suppose, then, his only chance against Kojiro in a duel would be using his magic - and even then, only if Kojiro isn't benefitting from Medea's or the temple's protection, I imagine.

Thanks, everyone!

[GundamFSN]

Well maybe Amakusa could win if he used to shadow thingy like Zouken did.

[fire_mountain_30]

Siegfried is stated to be less skilled than Karna by a very small margin and was one of the few guys i remember seeing their swordsmanship get hyped up besides kojirou and lancelot.

Amakusa is stated in Apo to be on the level of a rank and file soldier or just a bit above that, in terms of swordsmanship.

basically, he is as skilled as random Roman soldiers (probably) but he obviously has better stats than them

[You]

Or throw dust in her eyes when she's about to use it. Yeah, now that I think about it, there's a lot of possible ways to get past it.

you see this is why d'eon always carries a pocketful of flowers

[Arashi_Leonhart]

And Marie glitter

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

Hi. Im new here. But not new to FSN. And I just wanna talk about FSN. I read the novel in 08. Never got to reading FHA as they were still translating it back then and life just moves on.


So lets discuss. I think Cu Chulainn must have a chance to beat Herc. His spear has a curse to reverse cause and effect. Even tho its B rank. I know Nasu has said during interviews that he can use runes to uprank his NP. But I always think that Nasu just made it up on the spot. Herc's body is his NP. But the spear breaks a law of the world so I feel it trumps Godhand. This ties into Nasu's plot armour which is everywhere in FSN.

If Saber has a competent master, I think she can beat Herc. She would have a mana resource and just slice him up or Excalibur him 12 times. She did cut his arm in the forest scene.

I have faint memories of HF so I cant think of a matchup for True Assassin but I think from past discussions, Medusa beats Herc. A sane Herc with his hydra bow would be tougher opponent.

About Nasu's plot armour. Why didnt Archer just use UBW on Herc and win? Didnt he have broken A rank NPs?



That is not even mentioned as an ability in the stats page. But Nasu was interviewed about this too and again, I think he just made it up on the spot. He said if he has taken fire damage, then like an rpg his fire defense would up to 100. Of course, in rpg 100 defense is 100%, not 100 units. But then he also said he can still be damaged by fire.

Some has taken this to mean invincible against the same weapon or the weapon's special attack. It's an easy concept to argue, because nobody wants to argue what different methods means. People don't wanna argue if its a slash, a stab, a chop, a sneak attack and all that could come from the same weapon. It's just inconvenient. If Herc cant be ordinarily cut twice (with a slash, stab, chop etc), why bother with swordsmanship? In this scene, Herc's legs were melted, holes here and there, a big would from shoulder to groin and dangling arms. And it mentions Archer's variety of attacks. Obviously this means his variety of weapons. It's just a whole mess because Nasu didnt wanna show the fight. Greatest attack could mean the special move. Does this mean Excalibur or Gae Bolg wont work twice? I think they should work multiple times.

Originally, I thought Herc would just be wiser to the opponent's tactics, not even about the NP itself. I thought the line was just an abstract way of explaining that went overboard. But Nasu with his weird explanation. If he's using fire damage example, then surely Herc is already at 100 physical defense. This kind of power is just bullshit. Saber still managed to cut him. Nasu also said Alter Saber dominates Herc. He didnt say Alter Saber kills Herc. But Atler Saber, with her unlimited supply of mana can just cut him up tho I think Excalibur also works. Nasu is just bad. His story writing is fine. But this....this is bad.


Another plot armour is Cu Chulainn vs Gil. He could have just quickly do Gae Bolg and at best or at worst, it'll be a double suicide. He's good at dodging projectile. He lasted a long time. So I have to think he was dodging the chains as well. No way Gil would tolerate it for that long.

Also, Gil with his gold armour just simply put up his hands like a boxer and that repelled Excalibur, the sword not the blast. In UBW, he wasnt wearing armour. Deliberate choice by Nasu. Slightly plot armour. Shirou cant fight gold armor Gil.

[Megas]

errr... I feel like this post is probably better put in the questions thread?

[Arashi_Leonhart]

So lets discuss. I think Cu Chulainn must have a chance to beat Herc. His spear has a curse to reverse cause and effect.

And Herk has skin that reverses death.

Even tho its B rank. I know Nasu has said during interviews that he can use runes to uprank his NP. But I always think that Nasu just made it up on the spot. Herc's body is his NP. But the spear breaks a law of the world so I feel it trumps Godhand.

As opposed to the skin that breaks a law of the world to...literally live again. k

If Saber has a competent master, I think she can beat Herc.

Yes, this is pretty well established already?

Medusa beats Herc.

haha

A sane Herc with his hydra bow would be tougher opponent.

Yes, as per any statements that have been made about Archer Herk, that is his natural OP class.

Why didnt Archer just use UBW on Herc and win?

I think any given argument of "Why didn't ___ use ____ and win?" are a case of, uh, read the novel. Pay attention to subtext and context, not just, literal text.

That is not even mentioned as an ability in the stats page.

Neither is walking on water, the fact that Saber basically has mana burst "on" all the time, that Servants have to actually lower their MR to let stuff affect them even if it might be beneficial...yet, here we are...

He said if he has taken fire damage, then like an rpg his fire defense would up to 100. Of course, in rpg 100 defense is 100%, not 100 units. But then he also said he can still be damaged by fire.

That's, uh, not really right.

Some has taken this to mean invincible against the same weapon or the weapon's special attack. It's an easy concept to argue, because nobody wants to argue what different methods means. People don't wanna argue if its a slash, a stab, a chop, a sneak attack and all that could come from the same weapon. It's just inconvenient. If Herc cant be ordinarily cut twice (with a slash, stab, chop etc), why bother with swordsmanship?

why indeed

its almost like

Herk is

tsuyoi dakara

Does this mean Excalibur or Gae Bolg wont work twice?

Excalibur or other high-powered weapons don't have to work twice when they just hit him and deplete all his lives at once.

He could have just quickly do Gae Bolg

Yeah, as quickly as Gil could just, you know, pull out x from the Gate and smash Cu?

Also, Gil with his gold armour just simply put up his hands like a boxer and that repelled Excalibur, the sword not the blast.

Invisible Air.

Excalibur cuts through him, armor and all, at the end of Fate, y'know.

[Clockehwork]

But the spear breaks a law of the world so I feel it trumps Godhand.

Breaking a law of the world doesn't mean something trumps God Hand. Unless it is A rank, nothing trumps God Hand. That is the point of God Hand.

This ties into Nasu's plot armour which is everywhere in FSN.

I don't think you understand what plot armor is. Plot armor is when someone miraculously succeeds because they have to for the sake of the story. Having a super powerful defensive ability that is explained in detail and which then is always defeated is the polar opposite of plot armor.

Why didnt Archer just use UBW on Herc and win? Didnt he have broken A rank NPs?

In the sense that he has NPs that are A rank when he breaks them, yes. And he obviously did use it extensively, because that is the only thing he has. But he's just not a very good Servant, going up against one of the very best. That he took 6 lives from Herc is testament to how amazing his compatibility against him was.

That is not even mentioned as an ability in the stats page. But Nasu was interviewed about this too and again, I think he just made it up on the spot.

It is very explicit within the story that Herc is functionally invulnerable to whatever has damaged him already. I can't remember if it is in his stats page itself, but you'd have to be insane to think this was not something already written into God Hand before that Q&A.

I think they should work multiple times.

Good for you? But they don't. There is nothing suggesting otherwise and plenty suggesting that they wouldn't.

Also, Gil with his gold armour just simply put up his hands like a boxer and that repelled Excalibur, the sword not the blast. In UBW, he wasnt wearing armour. Deliberate choice by Nasu. Slightly plot armour. Shirou cant fight gold armor Gil.

Shirou can't fight no armor Gil, either. UBW was a one in a million circumstance where everything, including Gil's choice to not wear armor, lined up in Shirou's favor.

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

And Herk has skin that reverses death.

So? He can still die by Gae Bolg.

As opposed to the skin that breaks a law of the world to...literally live again. k

Then which law breaks which? If one law cannot break the other, then it's a contradiction. By definition, a curse with the power to reverse cause and effect can reverse the protection of Godhand. I think it's just a plothole left by Nasu.

Medusa beats Herc if I remember correctly. If you're not serious about discussing, at least dont be a smart ass.

I think any given argument of "Why didn't ___ use ____ and win?" are a case of, uh, read the novel. Pay attention to subtext and context, not just, literal text.

What was the context given? What was the situation presented? He could have use UBW and win.

Neither is walking on water, the fact that Saber basically has mana burst "on" all the time, that Servants have to actually lower their MR to let stuff affect them even if it might be beneficial...yet, here we are...

That's, uh, not really right.

I said Nasu said that in an interview. You're not even being serious. Just saying no is not discussing. It's a one way conversation. Quite standoffish and off putting.

Excalibur or other high-powered weapons don't have to work twice when they just hit him and deplete all his lives at once.

Or kill Herc with swordsmanship 12 times.

Yeah, as quickly as Gil could just, you know, pull out x from the Gate and smash Cu?

He can still go for the double suicide. He can do it with an opening or no opening.

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

In the sense that he has NPs that are A rank when he breaks them, yes. And he obviously did use it extensively, because that is the only thing he has. But he's just not a very good Servant, going up against one of the very best. That he took 6 lives from Herc is testament to how amazing his compatibility against him was.

Archer could kill Herc the same way Gil did with UBW. Archer wouldnt target Illy and doesnt have the chains. With those, Gil stood pat smugly. Archer just need to retreat while spamming and win.

It is very explicit within the story that Herc is functionally invulnerable to whatever has damaged him already. I can't remember if it is in his stats page itself, but you'd have to be insane to think this was not something already written into God Hand before that Q&A.

Good for you? But they don't. There is nothing suggesting otherwise and plenty suggesting that they wouldn't.

It sticks out to me that all the evidence is only one line. Think about the implications. Gae Bolg, Excalibur, Medusa. The swordsmanship or the special attack. Which of those exactly wont hurt Herc again? Why Nasu even bother saying Cu Chulainn and Alter Saber can kill Herc without his resistance in mind when answering? That's why Im questioning. Is it really that definitive?

Shirou can't fight no armor Gil, either. UBW was a one in a million circumstance where everything, including Gil's choice to not wear armor, lined up in Shirou's favor.

Yea it works out for Shirou. Hero has to win, right? Convenient he wasnt wearing armor. Otherwise, Shirou is dead.

[castor212]

this is all only taking account that X character can kill Herc without Herc turning X character into paste

ZerkHerc has more thing going on than just GodHand, offensively and defensively.

the thing about trying to kill Herc 12 times, even if you have 12 different sorts of swordsmanship, even if you can bypass the resistance up of God Hand, is that Herc would probably already kill you before you can manage to do that.

[Mcjon01]

Where is this Medusa can beat Herc thing coming from anyway, Medusa a shit

[forumghost]

So? He can still die by Gae Bolg.

No he can't, because Gae Bolg isn't A Rank

Then which law breaks which? If one law cannot break the other, then it's a contradiction. By definition, a curse with the power to reverse cause and effect and reverse the protection of Godhand. I think it's just a plothole left by Nasu.

God Hand has three effects:

1) It prevents attacks below A Rank from Harming Herk. Think of it this way- If Gae Bolg Breaks a Law of reality by reversing Cause-and-Effect, Godhand introduces a New Law of reality, which is 'Lolz U Aren't Rank A so GTFO'

2) It Brings you back from the dead. So even if Cu could kill Herk, he'll get better, which aint good for Cu.

3) It adapts to anything that has bypassed it before (which when coupled with 2, is really not good for Cu).

Medusa beats Herc if I remember correctly. If you're not serious about discussing, at least dont be a smart ass.

Medusa can by WOG take 2-3 Lives in one shot with Bellerophon, after which it becomes Useless. Additionally, Legendary Greek Monster VS Greeces greatest Monster slayer=Bad time for Best Snek

What was the context given? What was the situation presented? He could have use UBW and win.

Not really, because using UBW VS Herk isn't actually beneficial. It's a huge Power Guzzler and doesn't add anything because 99% of it is useless against Herk, As contrasted with Gate of Babylon, which costs basically nothing and is loaded with A Rank items that can bypass God Hand.

What Archer Needs to beat Berserker is time to build up his Big Shots (to penetrate God Hand), and UBW doesn't help with that, it'd just suck him dry of all the power he needs to get the shots in.

Or kill Herc with swordsmanship 12 times.

Yes, just kill a Walking Death Machine that shrugs off all but your best hits, and resurrects itself but with immunity to those shots when they do get in, 12 times.

Before said Walking Death Machine manages to paste you once.

He can still go for the double suicide. He can do it with an opening or no opening.

Unless of course Gil pulls out his Anti-Causality-Reversal NP and lols at Gae Bolg because he's Gil and that's what he does. Or he just stays outside of the spears range. Or pull out one of a countless number of other bullshit options out of his hat because again, it's Gil, and his entire shtick is "I did everything you did first retroactively, only better, because Fuck You"