Badass Versus Thread

[LJ3]

Base attack of Ea is actually a bit above Excalibur

[RoydGolden]

Base attack of Ea is actually a bit above Excalibur

I said "around the same level of". I thought it was slightly above, but couldn't be bothered to look up the specifics and so just decided to hedge my bets.

[Daiki]

couldn't be bothered to look up

Sadly, seems to sum up your posts when it comes to lore.

[Megas]

Yes. First he breaks out using "his powers" (I'm guessing that's magical energy) and jumps out of the way. He was still frozen for a moment, though, it wasn't immediate.

Ya but Gawain has MR rank B to EMIYA's D so I would wager he either would shake it off immediately or it wouldn't work on him in the first place.

IDK if sunny Gawain gets an MR buff on top of that either.

[Lily Emilio]

Note that Ea's 4000 is just talking about the energy it releases as beam and not taking it's tectonic energy from the cylinders or the truth conceptual effect into account.

Not disagreeing with or even directing this to you, what you said was correct for Rhon and Stella. I just wanted to put this out in cases of misunderstandings that Rhon > Ea people could get because there's lot more to Ea to make it hax.

4000 is the damage value, not the energy release or the firepower. You got things mix up cuz Nasu trolling again.

4000 is the damage value at MAX of Ea. The normal number is lower.
1000~3000 is the firepower of strongest NPs.
3 mil is the magical energy value of Lion King's Rhon. So let's say even if Arash's Stella had the firepower of 3000, the amount of magic energy units it released was 3 mil, then it can intercept the amount of magic energy the Lion King's beam has.

Similarly, let's assume for a bit that Ea has 3000 firepower, but the damage calculating formula is firepower/enemy armor value for example, then the actual amount of damage it can put out is 2000. But with boosts it can reach 4000. And maybe it has like 10 millions magical energy units or somesuch, who the hell knows.

3 completely different things that I honestly gonna be surprised if anyone get these 3 things mixed up.

And I thought the truth thing from Ea was explained by the world structure info we got. When Gil uses Ea it creates a spacetime rend, which cuts into reality aka the world carpet that covers the planet. This results in part of the carpet is being torn apart to reveal the very bottom layer of the planet - the primordial hell.

[fire_mountain_30]

Wrong. We only saw Arash fired his NP then we don't see anything else. The shot might be equal, or he managed to knocked it out of the way. Regardless, Arash only managed to intercept the beam because the shot he did was in the form of a concentrated magic energy blast. Dr Roman explained b4 the scene that the strongest NPs have firepower of 1000-3000 (Ea is max 4000 as per FSN) yet the amount of energy Lion King's beam has is over 3 millions. Arash basically managed to match that amount with his own beam. Remember, Arash's NP is not your everyday B++ NP, it's the shot that splits the land and has the range of 2500km in legend, and while it is anti-army its destructive power in on par with anti-fortress and anti-country range. Now imagine he concentrated all of that power into 1 shot and launch that massive energy beam into Lion Ling's casual beam. Gouging Spear can't do any of that shit dude.

meaningless.

rank converted to numbers determines power. there is no getting around that

B++, near dead compared to B++ fully healthy and buffed by a grail.

Gae Bolg has all sorts of haxes to it, but i aint even going to argue on NP specifics

rank is power, there is no getting around that

Brahmastra K is also much more impressive visually and range wise than Balmung and we all know how that turned out. came down to rank

so my entire thoughts on your deflection type reply can be summed up with "dread it, run from it, truth arrives all the same"

[Megas]

so my entire thoughts on your deflection type reply can be summed up with "dread it, run from it, truth arrives all the same"

You, uh, being serious right now?

Because I didn't read anything in that post that proved a point

[Arashi_Leonhart]

rank converted to numbers determines power. there is no getting around that

Except when it doesn't determine power.

Or that rank numbers are meant to be a general comparison, not the actual damage output, whatever that may be for any given NP.

[Lily Emilio]

meaningless.

rank convertes to numbera determines power. there is no getting around that

Nope. The numbers are not always the indication of power. The rank is an estimating of how powerful the NP is. Look at the 1000-3000 firepower and you already see how bullshit your argument about ranks converts to numbers and determines power.

B++, near dead compared to B++ fully healthy and buffed by a grail.

How about B+++ shield vs an attack that can pierce the planet. Rank =/= power.

Gae Bolg has all sorts of haxes to it, but i aint even going to argue on NP specifics

Haxes doesn't help you anything if you dont't have the same or higher amount of magic energy unit. The light beam would just incinerate the spear. Haxes doesn't help you instant kill the gigantic amount of magic energy from the beam.

rank is power, there is no getting around thay

"power" here is not always firepower, look at none offensive EX ranks NPs i.e Tamamo's, Nursery's and tell me if they are as strong as Ea in firepower.

Brahmastra K is also much more impressive visually and range wise than Balmung and we all know how that turned out. came down to rank

Nope. Sieg cuts through the attack with the energy beam, that's different from 2 beams clashing each other. It's like Balmung vs Clarent in the novel. The way the energy beams or the form of the attack will determine. It's also like how Gawain cuts through Karna's Brahmastra beam with his sword of devoted move, he sliced the beam.

so my entire thoughts on your deflection type reply can be summed up with "dread it, run from it, truth arrives all the same"

More like you are bending the truth due to you lack of comprehension.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Like, a C rank

Poke With Toothpick

Grind Into My Gums

that is Anti-Unit is not actually, if thrown at a D rank

Oncoming Freight Train

We Be Off These Rails

Anti-Fortress NP, going to cancel it out, despite being higher in rank.

[Sandstorm77]

meaningless.

rank converted to numbers determines power. there is no getting around that

rank is power, there is no getting around that

That‘s pretty much the opposite of what we‘ve had all this time.

Rank has never been fully attack power, because it also covers the concepts and effects. We have plenty non offensive conceptual stuff. Then we also have stuff like rule breaker which has a rank but basically has 0 attack power when you stab someone with it.

Rank has always been a ballpark generalization of the entirety of something‘s effect in it‘s category instead an absolute measure of power.

[fire_mountain_30]

Nope. The numbers are not always the indication of power. The rank is an estimating of how powerful the NP is. Look at the 1000-3000 firepower and you already see how bullshit your argument about ranks converts to numbers and determines power.


How about B+++ shield vs an attack that can pierce the planet. Rank =/= power.


Haxes doesn't help you anything if you dont't have the same or higher amount of magic energy unit. The light beam would just incinerate the spear. Haxes doesn't help you instant kill the gigantic amount of magic energy from the beam.


"power" here is not always firepower, look at none offensive EX ranks NPs i.e Tamamo's, Nursery's and tell me if they are as strong as Ea in firepower.


Nope. Sieg cuts through the attack with the energy beam, that's different from 2 beams clashing each other. It's like Balmung vs Clarent in the novel. The way the energy beams or the form of the attack will determine. It's also like how Gawain cuts through Karna's Brahmastra beam with his sword of devoted move, he sliced the beam.

More like you are bending the truth due to you lack of comprehension.

obviously i was talking strictly about offensive, energy beam type NPs. i was under the impression that we had managed to establish an unspoken standard for what we were talking about at this point

- - - Updated - - -

i mean come, on, do you think that i would forget about things like akilleus cosmos, lord camelot, rule breaker, monte christo myth, etc, when i said that? i know we disagree, but give me some credit

[Lily Emilio]

obvioualy i was talking strictly about offensive, energy beam type NPs. i was under the impression that we had managed to establish an unspoken standard for what we were talking about at this point

No, because again, energy beam type NPs are different from each other. Like I said, Clarent vs Balmung. You are under the misunderstanding that all beams work the same, which is completely inaccurate. Heck, do you know that Stella shot Arash did in Camelot is not even the same as the shot he did in Prototype Fragments? His normal everyday shot had to be altered to be able to intercept the beam. Musashi's NP also looks like a beam, but it's actually a powerful slashing attack with very precise focused point. Thrown Gae Bolg is not even a beam in the first place, it's a throwing projectile that splits (see Extella animation) into a bunch of smaller projectiles so idk what you even smoking by grouping it with the beams. Gawain's "beam" is actually not exactly beam and he just swings Excalibur Galatine with either a super long cutting edge or a wave-like fire thing. Archimedes's NP is multiple smaller beams focused onto a point to maximize damage, like how Goetia's big bad beam is actually countless smaller beams combined. Teardrop Photon Ray is a beam firing from the orbit like Lion King's. Enuma Elish is not even actually a beam but a combination of beam and energy vortex. Vasavi Shakti can be a fire beam or a bolt of lightning...etc.

Different type and shape of beams require different ways to intercept and win against. You don't pick a random NP of similar rank and pretend like they will do the exact same thing. In short, you completely simplified things to an embarrassing point.

[fire_mountain_30]

look, i saw your crazy long convo with Castor, so i aint even going to argue with you. i was just questioning the other person's basis for their decision and how it seemed too unaware of the feats displayed by other characters and was just looking at the attack, so i will bow out here.

also, on the whole 3 million thing, i take an author trying to establish a standard that is almost instantly broken as seriously as i take any strawman, so no, i will not give that statement any real weight, especialy when compared to things established in previous novels.

nor will i take similar strawmen seriously. Da Vinci supposedly said that it is impossible to fuse phantoms with servants. we all know how that went.

same for no NP being able to destroy a planet in terms of sheer force, yet a small fraction of Goetia's could easily do it.

and this 3 million strawman is just as bad if not worse.

so, in summation, i will not argue with you because i know how much you would be willing to drag this. i have expressed my viewpoints and that is all that i felt that i need and i have also told you why i cant take the 3 million thing all that seriously

- - - Updated - - -

No, because again, energy beam type NPs are different from each other. Like I said, Clarent vs Balmung. You are under the misunderstanding that all beams work the same, which is completely inaccurate. Heck, do you know that Stella shot Arash did in Camelot is not even the same as the shot he did in Prototype Fragments? His normal everyday shot had to be altered to be able to intercept the beam. Musashi's NP also looks like a beam, but it's actually a powerful slashing attack with very precise focused point. Gae Bolg is not even a beam in the first place, it's a throwing projectile that splits (see Extella animation) into a bunch of smaller projectiles so idk what you even smoking by grouping it with the beams. Gawain's "beam" is actually not exactly beam and he just swings Excalibur Galatine with either a super long cutting edge or a wave-like fire thing. Archimedes's NP is multiple smaller beams focused onto a point to maximize damage, like how Goetia's big bad beam is actually countless smaller beams combined. Teardrop Photon Ray is a beam firing from the orbit like Lion King's. Enuma Elish is not even actually a beam but a combination of beam and energy vortex.

In short, you completely simplified things to an embarrassing point.

i simplified because i was in a hurry and felt no need to elaborate on it besides bulletpoints. i know the specifics are different, but the overall energy in the total NP is supposed to be the same for a specific rank. and i did not mean to group spears or thrown projectiles with beams, but a spear and an arrow are both projectiles, despite not being beams and from context and his combat animations, gouging spear doesnt seem to split

[Megas]

... I, uh, so basically you are arguing based on some unwritten standard that you did not bother to confirm that you had established?

And now you're saying everyone should assume you know everything about the arguments you're making and that they make sense even if they don't because you were arguing based on the standard that you didn't mention you thought had been established?

[Ronove]

look, i saw your crazy long convo with Castor, so i aint even going to argue with you. i was just questioning the other person's basis for their decision and how it seemed too unaware of the feats displayed by other characters and was just looking at the attack, so i will bow out here.

also, on the whole 3 million thing, i take an author trying to establish a standard that is almost instantly broken as seriously as i take any strawman, so no, i will not give that statement any real weight, especialy when compared to things established in previous novels.

nor will i take similar strawmen seriously. Da Vinci supposedly said that it is impossible to fuse phantoms with servants. we all know how that went.

same for no NP being able to destroy a planet in terms of sheer force, yet a small fraction of Goetia's could easily do it.

and this 3 million strawman is just as bad if not worse.

so, in summation, i will not argue with you because i know how much you would be willing to drag this. i have expressed my viewpoints and that is all that i felt that i need and i have also told you why i cant take the 3 million thing all that seriously

- - - Updated - - -




i simplified because i was in a hurry and felt no need to elaborate on it besides bulletpoints. i know the specifics are different, but the overall energy in the total NP is supposed to be the same for a specific rank. and i did not mean to group spears or thrown projectiles with beams, but a spear and an arrow are both projectiles, despite not being beams and from context and his combat animations, gouging spear doesnt seem to split

I don't think you know what a strawman is

The 3 million statement is just meant to portray that Rhon's beam is many times more powerful than a top servant's NP .

[Iceblade44]

Goetia isn't a Heroic Spirit so he's exempt from that restriction. Hell his whole plan was basically taking those Counter Force limitations and disabling them, to allow him to do what he wanted to do.

The process of fusing phantoms came about after 3000 years of research by a being you could say was omniscient. So of course Da Vinci is an unreliable narrator because the one who did did it so what was impossible was made possible.

[Rafflesiac]

That's a weird way of spelling Ars Armadel Salomonis scorching the planet's surface.

[Lily Emilio]

look, i saw your crazy long convo with Castor, so i aint even going to argue with you. i was just questioning the other person's basis for their decision and how it seemed too unaware of the feats displayed by other characters and was just looking at the attack, so i will bow out here.

And you don't pit a spear against a giant beam that is the size of a village. You fight it with a huge beam of the similar amount of magic energy

also, on the whole 3 million thing, i take an author trying to establish a standard that is almost instantly broken as seriously as i take any strawman, so no, i will not give that statement any real weight, especialy when compared to things established in previous novels.

There is no contradiction so point out right now if you please? Did you even read my explanation about 3 different things. Do I have to explain you some gaming terms too?

Da Vinci supposedly said that it is impossible to fuse phantoms with servants. we all know how that went.

And the reason why you can't fuse is due to Counter Force. Shinjuku was already abandoned by CF so Baal took the chance AND 3000 fucking years to have 2,3 results. Did you even read the whole thing b4 saying random things like this?

same for no NP being able to destroy a planet in terms of sheer force, yet a small fraction of Goetia's could easily do it.

No SERVANT's NP can destroy the planet. Goetia is not a servant. Did you even read the statements carefully b4 dissing them?

and this 3 million strawman is just as bad if not worse.

Did you even read the rest of the explanation? 3 millions MAGIC ENERGY units. If you have an attack that can match 3 millions magic energy unit , even if it's rank E-- it will still cancel out the opposing as they explodes into contact.

so, in summation, i will not argue with you because i know how much you would be willing to drag this.

More like you ran out of arguments and decided to bail.

[Ronove]

Might be worth noting that Da Vinci's words were that no servant's NP (Which Goetia is not) can "completely" destroy the planet. We have actually never seen this, even if you include Goetia. He can penetrate the planet or incinerate the surface, but no mention of annihilating it altogether.