Badass Versus Thread

[Ronove]

The question was Enkidu matching Karna in melee. Obviously a full Age of Babylon spam can hurt him, but not if he's using them for just melee weapons. Enkidu can't give himself A+ in all physical stats as far as we know. At most he can give himself A rank in all of them, but without skill feats he won't tag Karna. Which is why it would be a stalemate at best (although I suppose that would fulfill the requirements of the question at hand).

Then this differs on how you define as melee. What I had in mind was Enkidu fighting exactly as his animations and fight against Richard depict. He combines both his physicals and sword/chain spam with it. Not much different from how Gilgamesh uses GoB in melee. And I never said anything about Enkidu giving himself A+ in all areas. But it is possible to award it to combat parameters by depleting Luck and Mana, and even Agility, Endurance and strength when he needs to. Transfiguration is broken because it's hard to adapt to and Enkidu can easily sacrifice the parameters that don't matter at any point in the fight. And when has Karna ever been so fast than A rank servants can't tag him?

I'm pretty sure they're just holding off on showing how Age of Babylon looks visually while Strange Fake is still going on. Same reason we haven't seen Mesket or Hyde's Werewolf form. Gilgamesh also rushes people up close with his animation so I don't know how reliable those are to begin with at determining fighting styles.

Enkidu has never been mentioned as being skilled and his main opponent so far has been Gilgamesh, who notably isn't.

Age of Babylon was the very first move Enkidu used in SF and Moriarty says it's just his spears and chains. We've already seen it. Use the manga for illustrations if that's what you want.

Gilgamesh not better skilled in melee is a meme. What's said is that he's not a master of the NPs he wields, not that he has no skill. He overwhelmed Saber in Fate route and had no problems engaging Altera in Extella.

Babylonia summaries had Casgil saying Enkidu considers sword spam as wasteful and that Kingu was wrong about it being suited to his body, so I doubt it's a technique Enkidu prefers using it himself.

[8000]

He fought with Richard in close-quarters, though it wasn't a serious fight.

We also don't know how skilled Richard is.

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Then this differs on how you define as melee. What I had in mind was Enkidu fighting exactly as his animations and fight against Richard depict. He combines both his physicals and sword/chain spam with it. Not much different from how Gilgamesh uses GoB in melee.

What you're describing sounds more like Apo Vlad, which I wouldn't consider melee. I would think Enkidu in melee would just be making weapons to hold.

And I never said anything about Enkidu giving himself A+ in all areas. But it is possible to award it to combat parameters by depleting Luck and Mana, and even Agility, Endurance and strength when he needs to. Transfiguration is broken because it's hard to adapt to and Enkidu can easily sacrifice the parameters that don't matter at any point in the fight. And when has Karna ever been so fast than A rank servants can't tag him?

If Enkidu is only equal in speed, he wouldn't be able to keep up without matching skill. He won't be totally unable to tag Karna based on Dracula Vlad doing so, but he would still be at a clear disadvantage.

Age of Babylon was the very first move Enkidu used in SF and Moriarty says it's just his spears and chains. We've already seen it. Use the manga for illustrations if that's what you want.

I mean we haven't seen it animated. DW seems to hold off on showing what some abilities look like animated for Fragments characters, presumably because there will eventually be an anime for that. I assume it's the same with Enkidu. His attack animations are incredibly vague, we haven't actually seen him make a single sword or ax from Earth like he does in SF.

Gilgamesh not better skilled in melee is a meme. What's said is that he's not a master of the NPs he wields, not that he has no skill. He overwhelmed Saber in Fate route and had no problems engaging Altera in Extella.

That's not the point. Gilgamesh can rush people up close, but he's only done so to Artoria in Fate as far as I know, so it's not a frequent move in character. You were using animations to justify Enkidu being a close range fighter and the point is animations don't necessarily correlate to fighting style.

Babylonia summaries had Casgil saying Enkidu considers sword spam as wasteful and that Kingu was wrong about it being suited to his body, so I doubt it's a technique Enkidu prefers using it himself.

So far the only opponents Enkidu had in his life that we know of are Gilgamesh and Gugalanna, the former who we know Enkidu didn't engage in melee and the latter of whom I highly doubt he did. So there's more lore to support him being a range fighter than otherwise.

[Rafflesiac]

CCC though

[Megas]

Actually, would Okitan stand a chance just through crazy offense?

[8000]

CCC though

What did he do in CCC?

[Ronove]

What you're describing sounds more like Apo Vlad, which I wouldn't consider melee. I would think Enkidu in melee would just be making weapons to hold.

To be fair? I directly used Apo Vlad as a comparison for that reason. If that doesn't qualify as melee to you then this is just a difference of opinion. As long as you're fighting someone else up close, I consider that melee. Using the environment for weapons is just extra utility.

If Enkidu is only equal in speed, he wouldn't be able to keep up without matching skill. He won't be totally unable to tag Karna based on Dracula Vlad doing so, but he would still be at a clear disadvantage.

A+ agi would make him faster than Karna if we're going by numbers alone. You're also overselling skill, if that decided everything despite parameters, Berserkers in general would be worthless in CQC, despite the nature and point of the class is to enhance stats.

I mean we haven't seen it animated. DW seems to hold off on showing what some abilities look like animated for Fragments characters, presumably because there will eventually be an anime for that. I assume it's the same with Enkidu. His attack animations are incredibly vague, we haven't actually seen him make a single sword or ax from Earth like he does in SF.

Fair enough.

That's not the point. Gilgamesh can rush people up close, but he's only done so to Artoria in Fate as far as I know, so it's not a frequent move in character. You were using animations to justify Enkidu being a close range fighter and the point is animations don't necessarily correlate to fighting style.

He's briefly done it to Altera who was depicted as a monster in her game. It's in his battle animations in GO, CCC and Extella. Either way, my point isn't that Gilgamesh prefers melee, it's this

Enkidu has never been mentioned as being skilled and his main opponent so far has been Gilgamesh, who notably isn't.

Gilgamesh is definitely not unskilled.

[Rafflesiac]

What did he do in CCC?

Gil regularly pulls weapons from the gate to go melee, it's all about his motivation yo

[Arashi_Leonhart]

If you were to grade Servant melee skills, Gil is supposed to be competent, even good, just not a great match against 100% melee types. He's a B or B+ grade to an Artoria A, Kojirou A+, or a Medusa C or Emiya C+/B-.

[Iceblade44]

So is Caliburn. The whole point of that scene though is that when there is direct lineage involved, origin > derivative.

I know that but I don't think it's as simple as Gram trumping Balmung straight out. For while Gram is the model of Balmung there are to many unique differences to dismiss them. You won't see them have such a dramatic effect as a projection of one of the latest models against it's originator anyway. Looking at them, what Gram trumps Balmung at is in pure firepower. At it's maximum output it is Anti-Fortress, the highest level of attack an NP can have while Balmung is lower at Anti-Army and it was never noted for having a paticualar strong attack power. That said you won't see them beam clashing tho given how Sigurd uses it, since he's like Lancelot who doesn't go to beam but instead concentrate and release it on direct contact. At most what can be said that if he can hit Siegfried and activates Bolverk Siegfried is most certainly dead regardless of AoF(which would be weaker anyway), but that can be said for most people. Balmung tho instead of going with pure firepower(which it isn't lacking of in it's self seeing it can match BK) it instead diverts to having a wide-range(and saying this now no matter how it looks like in the anime and in the games. I think that still should be a trait of Balmung even if it ain't shown, I mean how long did it take for us to see Cu to divide Gae Bolg?) and that it can be spammed. Since Sigurd doesn't have any defense armaments, a disengage type skill to dodge Balmung wide range or an opposing NP to nullify it in a beam off. With Siegfrieds Dragon Slaying buffs Sigurd most likely would die if he would be hit also. So basically if either of them lands their NPs the other is dead and because they can't do an NP off whoever lands it first wins. Other then that It be a draw in plain melee. Sigurds normal attacks with his sword and daggers won't do much as Siegfried has AoF(even tho Sigurd has A+ strength I have to remind that it is momentary use, he can likely only make a strike like that infrequently, so instead of being a weak scratch it would be a normal strike since it still loses a lot in the detraction, and given Siegfrieds up when compared to Karna is that he's tougher he can probably still survive an attack like that.) and Siegfried probably won't be able to put melee a guy who punches swords for a fighting style. So yeah who ever gets their NP in wins.

That was made way longer then I originally thought it be.

[8000]

If it's just a difference in opinions of what qualified as melee then I suppose we'll have to leave it at that.

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If you were to grade Servant melee skills, Gil is supposed to be competent, even good, just not a great match against 100% melee types. He's a B or B+ grade to an Artoria A, Kojirou A+, or a Medusa C or Emiya C+/B-.

Is he really better than Emiya without accounting for the abilities of his weapons?

[Tobias]

I think gil would be closer to a B or a B- myself.

[8000]

Sigurds normal attacks with his sword and daggers won't do much as Siegfried has AoF(even tho Sigurd has A+ strength I have to remind that it is momentary use, he can likely only make a strike like that infrequently, so instead of being a weak scratch it would be a normal strike since it still loses a lot in the detraction, and given Siegfrieds up when compared to Karna is that he's tougher he can probably still survive an attack like that.)

I don't buy this, I think the mat entry on AoF is incomplete. If we take it as it is, then AoF literally defends against regular attacks from dragon slayers no different than it does from anyone else. But in context, Siegfried is regarded as being at a clear disadvantage against dragon slayers by the Apo narration. If the mats were true to the letter, then he would still defeat George and Martha in melee via AoF despite this, which I think clearly isn't the intention even if he can beat them.

Given the wording we did get from the mats, I think AoF takes B rank regular attack from dragon slaying NPs, but doesn't do anything to attacks from dragon slaying regular attacks.

[SpoonyViking]

Is he really better than Emiya without accounting for the abilities of his weapons?

Archer is really held back by his lack of power.

[fire_mountain_30]

I know that but I don't think it's as simple as Gram trumping Balmung straight out. For while Gram is the model of Balmung there are to many unique differences to dismiss them. You won't see them have such a dramatic effect as a projection of one of the latest models against it's originator anyway. Looking at them, what Gram trumps Balmung at is in pure firepower. At it's maximum output it is Anti-Fortress, the highest level of attack an NP can have while Balmung is lower at Anti-Army and it was never noted for having a paticualar strong attack power. That said you won't see them beam clashing tho given how Sigurd uses it, since he's like Lancelot who doesn't go to beam but instead concentrate and release it on direct contact. At most what can be said that if he can hit Siegfried and activates Bolverk Siegfried is most certainly dead regardless of AoF(which would be weaker anyway), but that can be said for most people. Balmung tho instead of going with pure firepower(which it isn't lacking of in it's self seeing it can match BK) it instead diverts to having a wide-range(and saying this now no matter how it looks like in the anime and in the games. I think that still should be a trait of Balmung even if it ain't shown, I mean how long did it take for us to see Cu to divide Gae Bolg?) and that it can be spammed. Since Sigurd doesn't have any defense armaments, a disengage type skill to dodge Balmung wide range or an opposing NP to nullify it in a beam off. With Siegfrieds Dragon Slaying buffs Sigurd most likely would die if he would be hit also. So basically if either of them lands their NPs the other is dead and because they can't do an NP off whoever lands it first wins. Other then that It be a draw in plain melee. Sigurds normal attacks with his sword and daggers won't do much as Siegfried has AoF(even tho Sigurd has A+ strength I have to remind that it is momentary use, he can likely only make a strike like that infrequently, so instead of being a weak scratch it would be a normal strike since it still loses a lot in the detraction, and given Siegfrieds up when compared to Karna is that he's tougher he can probably still survive an attack like that.) and Siegfried probably won't be able to put melee a guy who punches swords for a fighting style. So yeah who ever gets their NP in wins.

That was made way longer then I originally thought it be.

and i genuinely love you for it. it wouldnt be fun or informartive otherwise.

regarding firepower for Balmung though, it nearly beat a CS boosted Clarent Blood Arthur

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He didn't even used prana burst against siegfried mate. At least compared it to the Sieg fight

and what is fire ging to do against AoF? even if the flames ammounted to an A rank attack by themselves, it wouldnt change anything

[Iceblade44]

I don't buy this, I think the mat entry on AoF is incomplete. If we take it as it is, then AoF literally defends against regular attacks from dragon slayers no different than it does from anyone else. But in context, Siegfried is regarded as being at a clear disadvantage against dragon slayers by the Apo narration. If the mats were true to the letter, then he would still defeat George and Martha in melee via AoF despite this, which I think clearly isn't the intention even if he can beat them.

Given the wording we did get from the mats, I think AoF takes B rank regular attack from dragon slaying NPs, but doesn't do anything to attacks from dragon slaying regular attacks.

The one that said he'd be at a disadvantage is Caules. Are you saying he would know the precise mechanics of Siegfrieds NP when he wasn't his Master and kept hidden that Black Saber was Siegfried? Caules said that because it was common sense, Siegfried possessed dragon attributes so of course anti-dragon stuff would work against him. Which it does but that also doesn't nullify it completely.

Also I want to say only Siegfried actually can make Anti-Dragon attacks passively. All the rest of them can make it only through from NPs so I don't see the problem in this. If George were to make an attack with either Ascalon and Interfectem Draconis by it self I can see it doing no damage to Siegfried. But since George chains NPs anyway I can see that getting past and striking down Siegfried when its together, especially since Ascalon reversed was noted to piece through any armor and ID seems to do more damage to dragons then normal.

Martha... What are you talking about with Martha? She doesn't have any Anti-Dragon abilties. In fact her main weapon is a dragon. Siegfried would destroy her.

[fire_mountain_30]

Karna's melee skill and parameters are the same in Foxtail, if not higher. He only loses his armor

How do you figure?

Hektor is pretty much Achilles' equal in terms of skill and Achilles is considered Karna's equal in the story

[Iceblade44]

Hektor is pretty much Achilles' equal in terms of skill and Achilles is considered Karna's equal in the story

Yeah but Achilles can be Karna's equal because he has a lot of toys that can off set Karna's large and powerful toys.

Hektor only has one toy tho. He can probably fight equally in a melee with Karna if just skill and Durindana can probably pierce KaK bit other then that Hektor won't have a good time.

[fire_mountain_30]

on Enkidu, the guy is physically very durable. in the manga he tanks Gil's swords with no damage, seemingly to compare his durability with Gil's armour and in the LN he blocks Richard's excalibur by grabbing it with a hardened hand.

enkidu is a tank

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Yeah but Achilles can be Karna's equal because he has a lot of toys that can off set Karna's large and powerful toys.

Hektor only has one toy tho. He can probably fight equally in a melee with Karna if just skill and Durindana can probably pierce KaK bit other then that Hektor won't have a good time.

the discussion was merely melee skill-related, but i appreciate the expertise.

also, if Achilles' couldnt tango with Karna in melee, given his melee oriented skillset and Karna's divinity, he would be way below Karna. he needs to be Karna level in melee to warrant that hype otherwise Karna woukd stomp him without even needing to pull out the nukes

[Zurvan]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sigurd (maybe George too) would have the skill, but it doesn't show up in FGO for some reason, prolly gameplay

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Hektor is pretty much Achilles' equal in terms of skill

is he though?

[DTTS]

If George had it, you'd think it'd be in his Mats or something.