Badass Versus Thread

[Tobias]

It’s actually both. At full power in an instance was what it took to block the bullet, but because he had a reserve of spells he could have used to continue at that level had the fight allowed it shows that it’s column A and B. But considering blade is an out and out bullet timer even at full boost kirei would only equal his speed.

a fundamental limitation of any hero kirei match up is he is limited to ten command seals. Once exhausted he runs out of steam. If he can’t speed blitz an opponent, like say, someone with high durability such as blade, his lack of staying power is a crippling weakness.

[8000]

The amp was just an instance from spending a command spell, he's not like that all the time.

Weird given the statement that he could fight Ciel, but okay.

Also his fight with Cursed Arm only went so well because he already knew CAs pattern of fighting from using Lancers eyes. Without that the fight would have been more one-sided.

That would've helped but it wouldn't have made up for a large speed differential. Kirei would still have to be fast enough.

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It’s actually both. At full power in an instance was what it took to block the bullet, but because he had a reserve of spells he could have used to continue at that level had the fight allowed it shows that it’s column A and B. But considering blade is an out and out bullet timer even at full boost kirei would only equal his speed.

a fundamental limitation of any hero kirei match up is he is limited to ten command seals. Once exhausted he runs out of steam. If he can’t speed blitz an opponent, like say, someone with high durability such as blade, his lack of staying power is a crippling weakness.

That would make sense, although Kirei not being able to bullet time without an amp is so freaking weird.

Why would he have trouble with Blade's durability? He has no piercing resistance so it would all come from healing. Black Keys should be kryptonite to a vampire and healing factors can be taxed anyway. Blade's not surviving decapitation.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Weird given the statement that he could fight Ciel, but okay.

It wasn't just the momentary bursts from Command Spells, but his Unrelenting Shounen Rivalry with Kiritsugu that puts him in that tier. You might notice that whenever this comes up it's about Zero Kotomine, even though SN Kotomine still has Command Spells.

[Tobias]

That requires kirei be fast enough to decapitate blade, and again, at best case scenario at full boost kirei is only as fast as blade, not faster.

further, upon review, I have to retract something. A significant point here is that blade is a bit of a Marty Stu. Specifically, he lacks all vampire weaknesses. He is a dhampire snowflake. It’s actually unlikely black keys or sacraments that would traditionally turn the tide in a match between an executor vs a vampire would actually work.

EDIT:

It wasn't just the momentary bursts from Command Spells, but his Unrelenting Shounen Rivalry with Kiritsugu that puts him in that tier. You might notice that whenever this comes up it's about Zero Kotomine, even though SN Kotomine still has Command Spells.

Well SN kirei was also old.

[Iceblade44]

Weird given the statement that he could fight Ciel, but okay.


That would've helped but it wouldn't have made up for a large speed differential. Kirei would still have to be fast enough.

The thing with Kirei matching up with CA didn't have do with speed, because well no matter how you look at it, it's impossible that Kirei can reach Servant speed, A rank Servant speed at that. No the reason he could keep up was because he predicted where CAs attacks came from thus acted before it happened. A clearer example of this is when Kirei was fighting Kiritsugu at 3 times speed, Kerry was faster then Kirei but Kirei was able to adjust his fighting to predict where the blows were coming from and then block them right when it comes making the speed boost pointless. Kirei wasn't any faster when he was fighting, he's just basically like has computer for a brain that he can make such insane reactions. That's what he was doing with CA, because since CA's fighting style revolves around a very repetitive line of actions once you seen it once it becomes easy to predict what he does.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Well SN kirei was also old.

You don't drop off a cliff between your twenties and thirties and he still kept up his wetwork whenever he met Baz.

Besides, this is Type Moon. Until you hit, like, 300, you're still good to go.

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it's impossible that Kirei can reach Servant speed

Not particularly

[Tobias]

You don't drop off a cliff between your twenties and thirties and he still kept up his wetwork whenever he met Baz.

Besides, this is Type Moon. Until you hit, like, 300, you're still good to go.

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Not particularly

not in this case. There a lot of implication in fate that advancing age did a real number on kirei’s physical health.

he was able to cover that up somewhat with experience, but he had a drop off.

EDIT: I actually can empathize with him a bit speaking as someone whose health fell apart between twenty five and early thirties. It can creep up on you really quick.

[8000]

The thing with Kirei matching up with CA didn't have do with speed, because well no matter how you look at it, it's impossible that Kirei can reach Servant speed, A rank Servant speed at that.

CA having A rank speed is bull in my opinion. Actually a lot of the rankings from the VN are outdated now that the verse is more fleshed out. CA Hassan was still able to keep up with Saber and Lancer enough to not get blitzed, but was clearly slower than both of them, even though that was Shirou's Saber. I mean Kirei is outright confirmed by Nasu to be able to beat Assassins so just reacting to one for a bit seems fine, even if it causes inconsistencies in Servant speed from a quantifiable perspective.

As for being able to predict his moves that wouldn't be enough. If you gave a normal person knowledge of Hassan's throwing patterns, they would never be able to do it. Even if we assume Kirei was aim-blocking them rather than actually timing them, unless CA was literally just throwing them one at a time, waiting multiple seconds for Kirei to adjust himself after each throw, he'd still need sufficient speed to block more than one.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

not in this case. There a lot of implication in fate that advancing age did a real number on kirei’s physical health.

he was able to cover that up somewhat with experience, but he had a drop off.

You're going to have to source that, because he never demonstrates any physical degregation that I can recall. The only times you see him fight in HF, he's still operating at the whole peak human thing by jumping out of multiple story buildings and running effortlessly at full speed and deflecting daggers and pointing out that he could potentially smash a Masterless Servant in the face.

[Tobias]

In the fate route it mentioned kirei was over estimating his own ability. Later, he talks about having gotten weaker.

[8000]

He mentioned he'd gotten weak after Shirou stabbed him in Fate IIRC, or something similar.

[Express]

Kerry vs Constantine (Keanu version)

[Tobias]

Wouldn’t Kerry pretty much stomp? I don’t remember keanu version doing much more then guns and martial arts. Am I wrong?

[Arashi_Leonhart]

He mentioned he'd gotten weak after Shirou stabbed him in Fate IIRC, or something similar.

He's talking about the irony of his own lulz getting him killed, not that he's declined physically.

[Iceblade44]

CA having A rank speed is bull in my opinion. Actually a lot of the rankings from the VN are outdated now that the verse is more fleshed out. CA Hassan was still able to keep up with Saber and Lancer enough to not get blitzed, but was clearly slower than both of them, even though that was Shirou's Saber. I mean Kirei is outright confirmed by Nasu to be able to beat Assassins so just reacting to one for a bit seems fine, even if it causes inconsistencies in Servant speed from a quantifiable perspective.

As for being able to predict his moves that wouldn't be enough. If you gave a normal person knowledge of Hassan's throwing patterns, they would never be able to do it. Even if we assume Kirei was aim-blocking them rather than actually timing them, unless CA was literally just throwing them one at a time, waiting multiple seconds for Kirei to adjust himself after each throw, he'd still need sufficient speed to block more than one.

It's not a normal person it's Kirei, again the same person who dealt with a guy moving three times faster than him by predicting his attacks.

Also I'm getting the impression you think Kirei was fighting equally with Assassin, which after checking was anything but.




At this stage Assassin hasn't taken a single wound yet, and is not even that tired while Kirei on the other hand is on the brink of falling over. The only time CA takes a wound is during the final push when he was gonna use Zabaniya on Kirei which left him open, he was fine with that tho because A) Black Keys couldn't kill him, and two B) Kirei was gonna be dead anyway, or at least he would have been if he had a normal heart. Also Kirei able to take out Assassin was only when he was in his prime in Zero and only against those that didn't have that great physical strength or something like that. Thag tidbit came from AN Einzbern Consoltion do which I didn't watch so I don't know the context.

As for Assassin's repetiveness, he follows a pattern and sticks to it, thoroughly. It's precisely because he sticks to it that Kirei was able to bait him to use his NP which led to his victory, without that he was screwed. Here's some blurbs talking about it.

Hm, this looks like the end. I should commend you for lasting this long against a Servant."
The old man's laugh echoes through the sky.

""
Assassin remains silent, in contrast to his talkative master.
Battle is merely work for him.
The Darks that go for his opponent's vital spots are also weapons to measure the strength of his opponent.
He measures his opponent's mobility with the first dagger.
He measures his opponent's action principles with the second.
He always keeps seven meters between him and the opponent.
He maintains a distance at which only projectile weapons are useful and measures his opponent's skill.

If he cannot kill his opponent in one blow, he will force his opponent to a place where he can.
He will drive them into a corner by cutting their limbs and tiring their bodies.
For Assassin, the daggers are merely preparation for his fatal attack.
He uses them to analyze his target's skill, creates the perfect opportunity, and smashes his enemy with his evil arm.
It's just a chore for Assassin, bringing him no joy.

It's a boring chore, but the priest is better prey than he expected.
He has used at least twenty daggers already.
Although he uses them to determine his opponent's skill, each one is still meant to kill.
The priest has blocked them and reached this ruin.
He dismissed the priest as a mere human, but his powers are admirable.

You must mean how your Zabaniya failed.
I believe you obtained your arm from Shaytaan, but it will have no effect on me as long as it bears the name of the fallen angel.
That arm punishes humans, so it cannot curse one of its own kind. As my heart is not human, it is strong against such a curse."

"I thought so. Your heart was the same as that girl's.
You must already be tainted."
The priest doesn't answer.
He merely smiles ironically.

"…But how did you know? You could not act as you did unless you knew my arm would have no effect on you.
Your intention was to have me use my Noble Phantasm, correct?"
"Yes. I already knew about your arm, Assassin.
A cursed arm that creates an image of the target's heart and swaps it with the real heart.
That's how you killed my Servant."

[SpoonyViking]

Hero!Kotomine vs Blade

Which version of Blade, movie or comics? And if comics, are we talking his original incarnation from "Tomb of Dracula", "Nightstalkers" and his first solo series, or are we talking about the super-powered version from after being bit by Morbius / after the retcon that he was always super-powered?

Kerry vs Constantine (Keanu version)

Kerry wins against all versions of Constantine. Constantine is impressive for his knowledge, cunning and luck, not his physical abilities or fighting skills, and even then he often suffers a lot of collateral damage.

[castor212]

I'm almost thinking that's a mistranslation

Its not

But indeed, text says gawain is a clock yet story tends to treat him like a plant

So who knows

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wars of attrition

Defensive war

I dunnk why it got translated to attrition, like technically thats kinda different. Defensive has a wider breadth compared to just attrition.

[8000]

It's not a normal person it's Kirei, again the same person who dealt with a guy moving three times faster than him by predicting his attacks.

Was Kiritsugu fighting 3x faster than him, or 3x faster than he normally is? Because Kiritsugu isn't as fast as Kirei to begin with so he wouldn't be superior by that kind of margin. Also keeping up with someone in melee is easier than timing projectiles thrown by that person. A projectile thrown at full strength would always be moving faster than the combat speed of the person throwing it. For instance Blade himself has fought speedsters the same way as Kiritsugu, but he would never be able to react if they started throwing stuff.

Also I'm getting the impression you think Kirei was fighting equally with Assassin, which after checking was anything but.

Oh I know he wasn't. But he still blocked 20 daggers thrown with intent to kill, and did well enough to make Assassin note he was better than expected. That's MUCH better than I see someone like Blade doing, but Kirei's quantifiable speed showings devalue him immensely.

As for Assassin's repetiveness, he follows a pattern and sticks to it, thoroughly. It's precisely because he sticks to it that Kirei was able to bait him to use his NP which led to his victory, without that he was screwed. Here's some blurbs talking about it.

He knew about the NP, I don't see where it says he observed Assassin's throwing patterns and used that knowledge. It doesn't say his pattern is repetitive either. His tactics overall are, but nothing about the individual throws. That still wouldn't be enough because Assassin can throw daggers faster than Kirei can move preemptively.

Also Kirei able to take out Assassin was only when he was in his prime in Zero and only against those that didn't have that great physical strength or something like that.

Most Assassins don't have great physical strength, they have good agility rankings quite often though.

[Iceblade44]

Was Kiritsugu fighting 3x faster than him, or 3x faster than he normally is? Because Kiritsugu isn't as fast as Kirei to begin with so he wouldn't be superior by that kind of margin. Also keeping up with someone in melee is easier than timing projectiles thrown by that person. A projectile thrown at full strength would always be moving faster than the combat speed of the person throwing it. For instance Blade himself has fought speedsters the same way as Kiritsugu, but he would never be able to react if they started throwing stuff.

It was his own speed, but just pointing it out there, even tho Kirei is fast, he was nowhere near the superhuman levels Kerry was when he Tripled Accel. What saw him through that wasn't his speed but his skills, as it said in the book.

As for Kirei responding to Hassan's projectiles, of course there very fast, there on the speed of bullets and no human can react when a bullet is fired, but Kirei can because he's not looking at the projectile being thrown, but the person before they throw it. As it says in his fight against Maiya

Even if Kotomine Kirei's evasive actions were of an unbelievable speed, they cannot be faster than the speed of sound of the bullets. But he determined Maiya's thoughts before she pulled the trigger and acted beforehand. What's amazing is Kotomine Kirei's judgment on tactics.

Predicting the moment of Maiya firing, and thus dodging the bullets. Even in the field of thaumaturgy, this is beyond the ability of the average person.

.

He knew about the NP, I don't see where it says he observed Assassin's throwing patterns and used that knowledge. It doesn't say his pattern is repetitive either. His tactics overall are, but nothing about the individual throws. That still wouldn't be enough because Assassin can throw daggers faster than Kirei can move preemptively.

point there, so maybe I should phrase it more better. From watching Assassin through Cu's eyes he knew his tactics or to say it better his fighting style. He knew how he fought so he defended accordingly until Hassan reached the point to use Zabaniya. He didn't have his moves telegraphed no, that was a mistake on my part, but from i said above of how Kirei can predict bullet trajectory knowing the specifics of Assassin's dirks would have helped him immensely or that's how I feel at least. Feel free to disagree.

Most Assassins don't have great physical strength, they have good agility rankings quite often though.

Yeah but him taking on Assassins with low physical strength sounds like it would only come into play if he fought them in a melee, not in a range battle he did with Hassan.

[castor212]

Its the jogging im telling ya