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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #123901
    吸血鬼 Vampire AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Also, it could be argued that Naruto and Sasuke at least are FTL because Naruto was able to dodge Madara's Storm Release Lightning Fang point blank, which was light speed, I think. In any case, yeah I think Orochimaru takes it, and the real interesting match would be between him and Francesca or Francois, if we knew more about what they could do.
    Only if you ignore every other speed feat nowhere near what you're suggesting. Let's not overrate things here.

  2. #123902
    リビングデッド Living Dead OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Astolfo vs. Lakshmibai
    Astolfo with his Hippogriff seems quite nimble in evading attacks, not to mention able to teleport around. Nahin Denge of Saber Lakshmibai takes the form of crescent sword beam, so she needs to lure him to get close to her in order to land a hit. Trap of Argalia could be Lakshmibai's natural weakness, given her E- luck. And La Black Luna could possibly stun Lakshmibai for an opening.

    If her Nahin Denge were Bounded Field, then she is safe from Astolfo's attacks. I'm not sure if Luna Break Manual is enough to bypass it, but if it's Casseur de Logistille then maybe he's able to break through said Bounded Field.

  3. #123903
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Only if you ignore every other speed feat nowhere near what you're suggesting. Let's not overrate things here.
    I'm just simply quoting the 4th Data Book, and yeah, I honestly call BS on the lightspeed thing, just as I would for basically all power-type Stands. Most Naruto characters do casually break the sound barrier beyond a certain point, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  4. #123904
    吸血鬼 Vampire AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    I'm just simply quoting the 4th Data Book, and yeah, I honestly call BS on the lightspeed thing, just as I would for basically all power-type Stands. Most Naruto characters do casually break the sound barrier beyond a certain point, though.
    I mean the feat itself involves dodging Madara's head movement and not reacting to the technique itself, so bringing it up is pointless when referring to Orochimaru. Why bother?

  5. #123905
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    I mean the feat itself involves dodging Madara's head movement and not reacting to the technique itself, so bringing it up is pointless when referring to Orochimaru. Why bother?
    Right, and it's only the anime that portrays it otherwise, aka, non cannon. To make matters worse, Might Guy was obviously faster by speed-blitzing Madara far better than Naruto and Sasuke (considering Madara considered him invisible even with the rinnegan). He was bending space by running, implying relativistic. No way you can be intellectually honest and put Naruto and Sasuke, who don't have such effects, as relativistic. To be blunt, there's better cases to be made for servants to be light speed if we're having as low of a standard of consistency as the average shounen jump fan and their respective series.

    Quote Originally Posted by falseCeilings View Post
    It's still a horrible mismatch when it comes to speed. The average Servant is sub-sonic, the more agile ones have super-sonic combat speed/reaction times. Naruto characters are hypersonic before you even get to the top tiers. Karna has good offense and defense but the top tiers of Naruto absolutely obliterate him. Nasuverse is kind of hard to integrate into who-would-wins as it gives precedence to metaphysical rankings and luck-rolls than it does to physically measurable feats. A real nuke probably causes more destruction than a lot of low-rank NPs, yet the latter is able to do much more damage to a Servant than the first.
    It's more like servant's feats are all over the place even in the individual stories. Their portrayal in statements and feats go anywhere between subsonic to relativistic. We have cases where blackened Herc is just somewhere above 200 km/h, we have the absurd 500km/h for the mounts, which has yet to have a story where the feats don't contradict the number. Fate/Zero says that Artoria, tripling her speed with invisible air, becomes a supersonic bullet.

    Artoria VS Rider had them scaling a large building (what was the story size of the building again, I forgot) like it would be pinball in an instant, which cannot be anything less than several times the speed of sound, and the Peagusus is faster than either of them. Iskandar's mount covered 50m within "an instant." You have Artoria in Fate/Zero indicating that servants in general can keep up with jets (if referring to the f-15, this is a top speed of 2.5 X the speed of sound), and she was keeping pace with Lancelot's enhanced f-15. Gilgamesh in Strange/Fake intercepted Alkides arrow, which would put him at massively hypersonic.

    The fate route indicated that It's possible for a servant to dodge Excalibur outside of 10m, despite being, you know, a slash of accelerated light. Artoria and Diarmuid's rematch stated that they were faster than wind, sound, and were approaching the speed of light.

    So yeah, huge variance, and not even a little bit of consistency. You really just need to set your standards with the series you're comparing to. If they highball, you highball servants to relativistic. If they go for a plausible average, you choose the supersonic/massively hypersonic range that comes up frequently. I do think it'd be fairly easy to make some cases for Karna against any version of Naruto and Sasuke that's not their adult versions to be honest.

  6. #123906
    At Least a Human Being falseCeilings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm View Post
    It's more like servant's feats are all over the place even in the individual stories. Their portrayal in statements and feats go anywhere between subsonic to relativistic. We have cases where blackened Herc is just somewhere above 200 km/h, we have the absurd 500km/h for the mounts, which has yet to have a story where the feats don't contradict the number. Fate/Zero says that Artoria, tripling her speed with invisible air, becomes a supersonic bullet.

    Artoria VS Rider had them scaling a large building (what was the story size of the building again, I forgot) like it would be pinball in an instant, which cannot be anything less than several times the speed of sound, and the Peagusus is faster than either of them. Iskandar's mount covered 50m within "an instant." You have Artoria in Fate/Zero indicating that servants in general can keep up with jets (if referring to the f-15, this is a top speed of 2.5 X the speed of sound), and she was keeping pace with Lancelot's enhanced f-15. Gilgamesh in Strange/Fake intercepted Alkides arrow, which would put him at massively hypersonic.

    The fate route indicated that It's possible for a servant to dodge Excalibur outside of 10m, despite being, you know, a slash of accelerated light. Artoria and Diarmuid's rematch stated that they were faster than wind, sound, and were approaching the speed of light.

    So yeah, huge variance, and not even a little bit of consistency. You really just need to set your standards with the series you're comparing to. If they highball, you highball servants to relativistic. If they go for a plausible average, you choose the supersonic/massively hypersonic range that comes up frequently. I do think it'd be fairly easy to make some cases for Karna against any version of Naruto and Sasuke that's not their adult versions to be honest.


    The feats for Servants aren't that disparate, now. If we know that their travel speed doesn't reach the speed of sound (Artoria on the bike was at most what, 500km/h+?), saying you could highball their combat speed to relativistic is plain silly. Most of what they do falls within under-supersonic to the low Machs. Language like "in an instant" is meant to convey the terrifying sense in which Servants outclass humans, not to give concrete speed feats. If someone covered 50m in 0.2s, that would definitely qualify as an "instant" to me, yet it's still subsonic. There's no reason to use flowery language for gauging speed when we can contextually get a pretty good sense for it.

    Gilgamesh's automated defense deflected a supersonic arrow. There's nothing hypersonic about it. In fact, one arrow did catch him off-guard, no?

    Artoria had trouble with deflecting Zerk's gunfire. She could intercept a bullet and dodge (consider she has Instinct which is basically Jedi pre-cog in this case), but she was definitely pressured. We have no reason to believe that Zerker was suddenly shooting relativistic bullets. If Artoria triples her speed to become a supersonic bullet, it's quite obvious her regualar speed also lies somewhere in the subsonic range.

    Really, I can't think of a fight sequence in the Fates that I know where anything any Servant did would require hypersonic movements. Far from trying to shit on Nasuverse's battle capabilities, I think this consistency is a great thing. It's Naruto which is annoying with even lowballed speed calcs giving absurdly high numbers.

  7. #123907
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    We need a in depth analysis of the meaning of whatever japanese word it was that got translated into "instant".

  8. #123908
    Bad News LeadDemon's Avatar
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    Seiba with a CS boost in the HA bridge fight is the biggest speed thing people have tried to 'map out'. Outside of that, you have metrics like what Shirou says GB's speed is and all of that, but hard numbers are a mess. Gets worse when you consider the exceptions like Dantes and Ach.

    Phantasmal Species are usually around the 400-500 kph speed range, if we want to use Medusa and Iskandar as benchmarks. But it's also a matter of a 'sprint' vs a 'marathon'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero vol 4
    However, there was no need to feel anxious. It was true that a Servant’s dexterity was far above that of the V-Max in terms of maximum acceleration and maximum speed. However, this iron beast could maintain its speed as long as there was fuel left. If she was expecting a drawn-out pursuit, then the motorcycle would be very advantageous.

  9. #123909
    死徒 Dead Apostle Bugs's Avatar
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    Hard numbers sound like the worst thing to happen to these arguments.

  10. #123910
    死徒 Dead Apostle Menwearpink's Avatar
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    Math makes everything worse.

    Archimedes on suicide watch.

  11. #123911
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Wouldn't Lancelot's prana-enhanced machine gun fire bullets at a faster rate?
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan in the distant past.

  12. #123912
    Quote Originally Posted by falseCeilings View Post
    The feats for Servants aren't that disparate, now. If we know that their travel speed doesn't reach the speed of sound (Artoria on the bike was at most what, 500km/h+?), saying you could highball their combat speed to relativistic is plain silly. Most of what they do falls within under-supersonic to the low Machs. Language like "in an instant" is meant to convey the terrifying sense in which Servants outclass humans, not to give concrete speed feats. If someone covered 50m in 0.2s, that would definitely qualify as an "instant" to me, yet it's still subsonic. There's no reason to use flowery language for gauging speed when we can contextually get a pretty good sense for it.
    Me: We have multiple statements and feats indicating different speeds that are radically different and showing a huge inconsistency, showing multiple ways to interpret a servant's speed depending on one's standards.

    You: That can't be true, because we have a statement that indicates a particular speed level, so the other speed levels that are radically different can't be true, so the speeds aren't all over the place.

    Notice how this isn't a contradiction to my statement. This is you just voicing which numbers you go by, and not addressing that multiple numbers exist. It's not like the 500km outranks all the supersonic and above feats.

    An instant is meant to convey that an extremely short time frame has passed for the duration of the actions in the series. An "instant" is not precise, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that the meaning of an instant is up to something like half a second or even as low as .2 seconds when anyone would easily notice a .15 second input delay in any game. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/instant https://www.thefreedictionary.com/instant

    So tell me, with Occam's razor, what's the more likely interpretation? Instant is used in the context of "this distance is traveled in a time-frame almost unnoticeable to humans(one of the dictionary definitions) such as the blink of an eye" when Servants that are repeatedly said to move faster than human eyes can see, or " the time-frame can be anything, just somewhere above humans?" Also, if we're going by the "flowery language" argument, what makes you think the statements you know of not similarly untrustworthy, but just in the opposite direction?

    Gilgamesh's automated defense deflected a supersonic arrow. There's nothing hypersonic about it. In fact, one arrow did catch him off-guard, no?
    Nope. The arrow outruns the lightning-based automated defense and explicitly stated to be faster than electric transfer in the air, eliminating subjectivity. Depending on if it was referencing a downward stroke of lightning, or an upward one. If the downward stroke is the author's intent, then the arrow was traveling substantially faster than mach 289. If it was referring to something like an upward stroke of lightning, it would be faster than mach 286832. https://www.reference.com/science/fa...817d00283ff828

    Gilgamesh saw that the arrow got through the defenses, and used his arm to intercept the arrow. What does that tell you?


    Artoria had trouble with deflecting Zerk's gunfire. She could intercept a bullet and dodge (consider she has Instinct which is basically Jedi pre-cog in this case), but she was definitely pressured. We have no reason to believe that Zerker was suddenly shooting relativistic bullets. If Artoria triples her speed to become a supersonic bullet, it's quite obvious her regualar speed also lies somewhere in the subsonic range.
    She had trouble with bullets shot out of a gatling gun enhanced far above its basically ability by Lancelot, the only problem being the rate of fire making it difficult to continue to counter. Also, you're ignoring context and assuming that it was only something someone like her can do, and not a general case, which absolutely was the context of Fate/Zero.

    "By good command of footwork as a Servant, Saber would be able to rival a jet fighter in speed and galloped on top of the water."

    "Regardless of the size of the caliber, something on the level of mere cannon shells pose no threat to Servants at all. This is especially so with Saber, whose physical abilities would allow her to evade them with no difficulty, and even deflect the shots back with the blade of her sword if she wanted to. However – no matter how extraordinary the Heroic Spirit may be, the 12,000 rounds-per-minute of the pride of America's General Electric, the M61 autocannon, presented an unmanageable amount of shots. Worse yet, as a weapon carrying the properties of a Noble Phantasm due to Berserker’s prana, a single shot would instantly be fatal."

    Run of the mill servants can do this. Saber simply is better. And don't even argue that the jet wasn't enhanced. There are at least 3 instances that explicitly show elements of it being amped. Again, you citing the first fight of Saber against Diarmuid does not disprove this feat or statements, just that you prefer another statement. Again, this shows that the feats are all over the place.

    Really, I can't think of a fight sequence in the Fates that I know where anything any Servant did would require hypersonic movements. Far from trying to shit on Nasuverse's battle capabilities, I think this consistency is a great thing. It's Naruto which is annoying with even lowballed speed calcs giving absurdly high numbers.
    Anyone below Itachi's level is massively slower than lightning. Kirin gives a hard-cap on speed up to this point in the same way Gin's mach 500 statement is a hard cap for Bleach characters up to the god-tier fighters. Now that Itatchi's starting to be considered to be on par with KCM Naruto in speed (their physical bout), this makes calculations of Naruto speed much lower. Also consider that when faced with a lightning attack from Madara that covers a relatively large distance, Sasuke chooses teleportation, Naruto uses a Truth Seeking Ball as a lightning rod, indicating dodging wasn't an option. VS debates have a lot of slight of hand that can be used to make characters more or less impressive than they are.

    Also, on the subject of Fate and Naruto. Consider this. One instance where Naruto dodges a swipe attack from Madara, and the blade itself is light-speed is considered to be a relativistic feat by many communities, Gilgamesh can potentially dodge Excalibur with some distance (see their clash) despite the fact that mechanically, the attack is light-speed if not greater. https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2098/

    "The light concentrates.
    There's only about ten meters between them.
    Within that distance, Gilgamesh shouldn't even be able to dodge her attack."

    You can't bring up the aim-dodge argument, because distance would be irrelevant then. It's the beam he'd be dodging. Am I saying this is a consistent feat? No. However, it's a stronger case then some arguments accepted into the mainstream.

    Quote Originally Posted by madarra View Post
    We need a in depth analysis of the meaning of whatever japanese word it was that got translated into "instant".
    Yes. What would help is some other scenarios where the word is used. Does it mean something like "in a blink of an eye", or does it mean "really fast" with no other connotation?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeadDemon View Post
    Seiba with a CS boost in the HA bridge fight is the biggest speed thing people have tried to 'map out'. Outside of that, you have metrics like what Shirou says GB's speed is and all of that, but hard numbers are a mess. Gets worse when you consider the exceptions like Dantes and Ach.

    Phantasmal Species are usually around the 400-500 kph speed range, if we want to use Medusa and Iskandar as benchmarks. But it's also a matter of a 'sprint' vs a 'marathon'.
    Exactly my point. It's all over the place. On the phantasmal species, while that's true, the novels stupidly call it their "max speed" only for both stories to contradict it by feats impossible by 500km/h.

  13. #123913
    リビングデッド Living Dead OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Is it alright to bring up a matchup between NPs or the like?

    I'm wondering how effective World Faith Domination could be against Bounded Fields or Reality Marbles.

  14. #123914
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    WFD is effective against anything.
    It drops the mystery of its target to 0 which means it doesn't work anymore.
    World Faith Domination.
    Governance over mystery through the Great Three Inventions that Edison built.
    Illuminating the darkness, by the device invented by Edison that records reality as it is, the hidden secrets of the world became absent.
    Being exact, they’re in a state in which 『they exist, but they’re recaptured by Edison』.
    Easily exposing things that display power from the concealed and the secret, it fixes that which energy can’t be measured to zero.
    Making the devotion of the people towards Mystery collapse to zero, it’s 『extortion of the world faith』 ――― an Anti-Populace Noble Phantasm.
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  15. #123915
    リビングデッド Living Dead OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Wow, that's.. that sounds OP.

    That will definitely reduce specific Servants' fighting options, even if only temporary.

  16. #123916
    Reines El-Melloi Archisorte vs Toph Beifong

  17. #123917
    死徒 Dead Apostle Bugs's Avatar
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    Reines hasn't really performed any noteworthy feats, so it probably comes down to whether or not Toph can bend Trimm.

    Which is probably a yes.

  18. #123918
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs View Post
    Reines hasn't really performed any noteworthy feats, so it probably comes down to whether or not Toph can bend Trimm. Which is probably a yes.
    same holds true for Kayneth right?

  19. #123919
    The Greatest Cool Reign's Avatar
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    Toph can metalbend but mercury might be too different from the solid earth she's used to to really bend Trimm. Didn't she have trouble with bending sand because of that same issue?

    Though even if she can't affect Trimm I say Toph still wins easily.

  20. #123920
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    WFD is effective against anything.
    It drops the mystery of its target to 0 which means it doesn't work anymore.
    This has always been dumb

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