Least favourite servant?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

See, that's where you're trying to apply the same logic.

FGO is merely another layer of things that aren't backwards-compatible because they are their own thing. There was no Attila when the character of Arturia was written, so it is stupid to ruminate over the meaning of Arturia's sword being possibly related to Ancient Aliens Chick because there was no Ancient Aliens Chick when Arturia was written.

Dude, you are in denial. There is nothing from FSN that directly contradicts info about ancient aliens and Excalibur being the sword that protects the planet.

[Ratman]

I am plainly saying that the ideas behind Excalibur, as it was introduced in FSN, and used in Zero still, and Artoria's character by extension are foolish to interpret through the lens of content introduced many years later, as Nasu has most likely not thought of Velbers back then, and Gen sure as hell did not.

All NPs are symbolic, thats what they are. Outside of gags evervy Servant's NP(or at least one of them) is a representation of the symbolism held to them. One thing to note tho that they are still just symbols. Excalibur isn't literally carrying the hopes of all warriors, that's not how it works. What Excalibur is, is right there in the text. Sword of Promised Victory. That is what the sword is, Victory. When Iri mentions that all soldiers look at the sword it is because of this, because it's literally a symbol of victory. That's it's theme. The burden that's being talked about when Saber has that sword is when she has it she becomes that symbol, she becomes and is seen as victory incarnate. It's a promise, because if her having the sword means she will have to always be victorious to those under her, she will do so. Anyway I just want this to be cleared up because from this argument is sounding like is as if Excalibur was created by the wishes of dying soldiers all through out time, which isn't exactly correct. It was created to defeat Sefar, thus bringing Victory against a thing no one ever won against thus it became a symbol for it.

Why you insist on bringing then unrelated ancient aliens into a simple to understand story of a person having been impressive is beyond me.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I am plainly saying that the ideas behind Excalibur, as it was introduced in FSN, and used in Zero still, and Artoria's character by extension are foolish to interpret through the lens of content introduced many years later, as Nasu has most likely not thought of Velbers back then, and Gen sure as hell did not.



Why you insist on bringing then unrelated ancient aliens into a simple to understand story of a person having been impressive is beyond me.

What you are insisting is absolutely ridiculous. Just because earlier material wasn't made with later material in mind, we should ignore any connection between them? That would discount quite a lot of later developments in lots of anime and manga, not just the Nasuverse. Moreover, Excalibur's true nature isn't inconsistent with earlier material.

[Zork Knight]

I am plainly saying that the ideas behind Excalibur, as it was introduced in FSN, and used in Zero still, and Artoria's character by extension are foolish to interpret through the lens of content introduced many years later, as Nasu has most likely not thought of Velbers back then, and Gen sure as hell did not.

Goetia was already a thing back when Melty Blood AA came out, so I don't doubt anything at this point

[Ratman]

What you are insisting is absolutely ridiculous. Just because earlier material wasn't made with later material in mind, we should ignore any connection between them? That would discount quite a lot of later developments in lots of anime and manga, not just the Nasuverse. Moreover, Excalibur's true nature isn't inconsistent with earlier material.

Well, if you wish to understand what Excalibur is about in the context of Zero, and that was the topic of the discussion, you really should not be bringing FGO and Extella up.

The difference, if it's not obvious, is that in the context of FGO/Extella, Excalibur is just another God of Destruction for the Multiversal Black Tournament for the pile of bling. In FSN and Zero, the mere act of Excalibur being revealed implicitly means that hope for a good ending is found in these stories, and it's by this narrative tool that each of the ultimate endings is reached.

In F/GO, Excalibur doesn't really mean anything. It's a sword that shoots beams and it doesn't even matter if there's no better sword that shoots beams, and it doesn't really matter what it shot beams against either, because anything is going to pale in comparsion to what the sword stands for in Stay Night. In F/SN, it is tied to the core of the story, premise, and serves to resolve it in every route. In F/SN, Excalibur means everything. Looking at it as one of Goku's forms frankly stains its memory.

It's really much like what Luke's lightsaber is to Darth Maul's lightsaber. One has meaning that the audience is invested in, the other is vain image, however impressive it is. Saber Wars is quite to the point, really. If this is how you approach content, you will never understand anything.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Well, if you wish to understand what Excalibur is about in the context of Zero, and that was the topic of the discussion, you really should not be bringing FGO and Extella up.

The difference, if it's not obvious, is that in the context of FGO/Extella, Excalibur is just another God of Destruction for the Multiversal Black Tournament for the pile of bling. In FSN and Zero, the mere act of Excalibur being revealed implicitly means that hope for a good ending is found in these stories, and it's by this narrative tool that each of the ultimate endings is reached.

In F/GO, Excalibur doesn't really mean anything. It's a sword that shoots beams and it doesn't even matter if there's no better sword that shoots beams, and it doesn't really matter what it shot beams against either. In F/SN, it is tied to the core of the story, premise, and serves to resolve it in every route. In F/SN, Excalibur means everything. Looking at it as one of Goku's forms frankly stains its memory.

It's really much like what Luke's lightsaber is to Darth Maul's lightsaber. One has meaning that the audience is invested in, the other is vain image, however impressive it is. Saber Wars is quite to the point, really. If this is how you approach content, you will never understand anything.

FSN was always only a small part of the Nasuverse, which already had a complex lore and set of mechanics, and in the limited scope of FSN, Excalibur obviously meant everything. Even now, with the expanded setting of Extella/Extra and GO, Excalibur is still special, even if Artoria has been overshadowed, since it is still the same Sword of Promised Victory, the same defense of the planet, and the same hope for good it's always been. However, it can't be avoided that Excalibur isn't as central now that the small microcosm that is Fate has been connected to a much wider world. If you're salty about that, don't accuse me of not understanding content.

[Ratman]

If you want to spin it that way, I'd probably rather it not be raped to death by the countless saberfaces wielding things that look like it, but here we are.

The fact that it shot down an ancient fucking alien, in an event nobody knows about, before time, before the character in question even had it and thus no one in the scene is aware of this, still adds nothing to Saber's case on the banquet. Definitely not compared to what she accomplishes in the story itself, much smaller in material scale, but much greater in spirit.

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I can't belive I got this passionate defending Zero, smh

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I am legitimately confused now what we're even arguing about.

[Rafflesiac]

Goetia was already a thing back when Melty Blood AA came out, so I don't doubt anything at this point

Did Goetia always exist, fully formed in Nasu's big old book of notes, or did Nasu merely finally have the chance to inject meaning into some chuuni terms he added to fill out Aoko's route way back when?

The world will never know.

[Rafflesiac]

I am legitimately confused now what we're even arguing about.

That there's a world of difference between what it means to defeat Herakles in FSN and your sick Mata Hari solo against Okeanos Herk.

[Mcjon01]

That there's a world of difference between what it means to defeat Herakles in FSN and your sick Mata Hari solo against Okeanos Herk.

But Excalibur didn’t defeat Herc in FSN. The beam isn’t strong enough so Herc just bitch slaps that shit and kills everyone and then Illya says it would have worked if Saber had gone SSJ3
Wait I thought Excalibur was supposed to be some special thematic thing in FSN

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I get it now, and to that I say, FSN's thematic stuff was meant for only Zero and FSN, not the rest of the Nasuverse. Other Nasuverse works have always had their own themes unrelated to heroism or justice, and with Excalibur serving its narrative purpose in FSN, it doesn't need to have the thematic weight it once had.

[Rafflesiac]

But Excalibur didn’t defeat Herc in FSN. The beam isn’t strong enough so Herc just bitch slaps that shit and kills everyone and then Illya says it would have worked if Saber had gone SSJ3
Wait I thought Excalibur was supposed to be some special thematic thing in FSN

[Deathhappens]

Extra worlds: Velber attacks. There are two targets: Mooncell and Earth. Sefar invades Mooncell and 3D prints another one to destroy the Earth. Excalibur blasts the one in Earth, and years later the Huns find Altera inside the ruins of its body. In the Mooncell, Sefar was sealed until the events of Extella.

Other worlds. Velber attacks. There is one target: Earth. Sefar goes there. Excalibur blasts it, and years later the Huns find Altera inside the ruins of its body.

That's it. You just remove the Mooncell from the equation, everything else is the same.

Nitpick: It's not "years later" it's "several millenia later". The game itself makes it seem like Altera crawled out of her predecessor's corpse a little while after it fell, but in fact the time period during which she was active began 15 000 years later. Humanity went from cave paintings to Byzantium. It makes one wonder what kind of remains Sefar even left that lasted that long: a mountain, perhaps?

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Goetia was already a thing back when Melty Blood AA came out, so I don't doubt anything at this point

Yeah, and Kubo mentioned the Royal Guards a decade before we saw them in Bleach, but if you think he actually planned on them to become the fiasco they were I don't know what to tell you.

Seriously: Dropping vague and unexplained plot hooks only to dredge them up later when you need something unexpected is DMing 101. I have no doubt Nasu knows what he's doing when he drops those terms here and there in his work, even if he doesn't always know what they mean. And despite all my accusations I actually respect Nasu a lot more than I do Kubo.

[Ratman]

I respect Kubo too, even though 'grand servants', 'seven beasts', 'Tamamo Nine' seem all suspicously like something he'd do.

It's a good thing that we didn't get a bunch of shadowy outlines of people talking around a table, at least.

[Deathhappens]

Crypters?

[Rafflesiac]

They weren't shadowy