Servant Redesign Thread

[RAMPANT]

I don't really mind most of the genderbends. There a few that I wouldn't mind seeing changed back, but most of them I either don't care about either way, or have become attached to enough that I will defend their existence as such.

• Give Jack clothes. I actually saw some really good art someone did of a clothed Jack that I thought was pretty good.
• Make Liz more serious (not her personality necessarily, but as a character). I really like the idea of her wanting to distance herself from her future self, but the extreme that it's been take to makes her too much of a joke character. obviously event variations are fine, since they are joke characters, but i don't feel like that was the intentional with the original version.
• Make Caesar less fat.
• Change Boudica. I don't know how, but her design is just boring. It's like whoever designed her thought that revealing clothing meant automatic success.
• Make Blackbeard less annoying and more badass
• Give both of Arturia's lancer variations less chest.

And of course, my favorite totally serious suggestion: we all know the only way to fix Shuten-Douji is by making her a buff dude, but leaving him with the current Shuten's outfit.

Probably many others I'm forgetting.

[Rafflesiac]

Give both of Arturia's lancer variations less chest.

[Ratman]

Except it is his backstory, the historical one. Not Goethe's adaptation one. Like the whole homunculus thing is based on the real world Alchemist Georg Faust, with his NP being based on how Faust died to an explosion. Book Mephistopheles, hell most folklore mephistopheles is covered by Innocent Monster, which mean it all fits.

Bullshit. Historical Faust didn't deal with a devil named Mephistopheles, since that's a name hebrew-based name Goethe came up with.

If you're going with the historical basis, then maybe make FAUST the servant rather than making it the closely unspecified devil (which, in any contemporary interpretation, would be >the< devil, thus probably not a summonable character). After you do that, you really shouldn't make the mistake of giving this closely unspecified devil the extremely specific name which strictly refers to the devil featured in Goethe.

I am tired of arguing this. Fuck.

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When you name your character Mephistopheles, no matter what you're going to do, you're going to be writing Faust. You're setting a bar of having to write something really good. You're going to be writing one of the most conflicting and fascinating characters in literature. Imagine pussying out of it so hard that what you deliver is this gravel oatmeal of a character with a sprinkle of xanax.

[eddyak]

Shouldn't any demon/devil/whatever-Meph-actually-is be unsummonable to begin with? Shuten & Ibaraki stretch the rules pretty far, being completely not-human but bound to humanity in some way so as to make their summoning possible, but the western idea of demons/devils/so on are just straight-up inhuman enough that they shouldn't be anywhere near the Throne.

[RoydGolden]

Shouldn't any demon/devil/whatever-Meph-actually-is be unsummonable to begin with? Shuten & Ibaraki stretch the rules pretty far, being completely not-human but bound to humanity in some way so as to make their summoning possible, but the western idea of demons/devils/so on are just straight-up inhuman enough that they shouldn't be anywhere near the Throne.

That's probably why TM decided to go with the Homunculus idea in the first place. Personally, I think it's an interesting way to combine the legends of RL alchemist Faust and the literary figure Faust.

[I3uster]

are we still doing unsummonable in tyool 2018

[You]

Shouldn't any demon/devil/whatever-Meph-actually-is be unsummonable to begin with? Shuten & Ibaraki stretch the rules pretty far, being completely not-human but bound to humanity in some way so as to make their summoning possible, but the western idea of demons/devils/so on are just straight-up inhuman enough that they shouldn't be anywhere near the Throne.

You can be on the throne as long as you have a soul and died
There are robots on the throne

[SeiKeo]

are we still doing unsummonable in tyool 2018

resist my dude

[RAMPANT]

Thus is my purpose.
In all seriousness though, they look ridiculous. Especially alter. I feel the same about Raikou, but she's already been mentioned, and I don't much care for her anyway.

[Iceblade44]

Bullshit. Historical Faust didn't deal with a devil named Mephistopheles, since that's a name hebrew-based name Goethe came up with.

If you're going with the historical basis, then maybe make FAUST the servant rather than making it the closely unspecified devil (which, in any contemporary interpretation, would be >the< devil, thus probably not a summonable character). After you do that, you really shouldn't make the mistake of giving this closely unspecified devil the extremely specific name which strictly refers to the devil featured in Goethe.

I am tired of arguing this. Fuck.

- - - Updated - - -

When you name your character Mephistopheles, no matter what you're going to do, you're going to be writing Faust. You're setting a bar of having to write something really good. You're going to be writing one of the most conflicting and fascinating characters in literature. Imagine pussying out of it so hard that what you deliver is this gravel oatmeal of a character with a sprinkle of xanax.

Did I say anything about Mephistopheles name? I didn’t. Historical Faust didn’t make any deal with any demon period. He was a weirdo alchemist who probably died in one of his experiments. The deal with the Devil came about in folk stories based around his weird death or at least that is one theory.

also the name Mephistopheles was a thing way before Goethe, note the character in Christopher Marlowe Tragical History of Doctor Faustus whose name is Mephastophilis. See the similarity? I can’t see it possible that Goethe came up with a name when a play with a character by the name had existed nearly 2 centuries before Goethe was born. And if it is older then Goethe, likely it’s even older then Marlowe as well.

this isn’t the point I was making though, none of this goes against what is said because two words, Innocent Monster. Of course the name Mephistopheles brings up the image of Goethe’s work, it’s supposed to. Having this skill means that he is influenced by that tale significantly, hell going by what the skill gives him if it wasn’t because of that play or all the other folk stories that he inspired it’s likely he wouldn’t be able to even be a HS. That is the idea he’s based around, he is something bounded on the historical account of Faust as an alchemist then putting that through Nasuverse lens, explaning his origin while later legends paint him as a devil., thus creating him as a Servant. The tie into Goethe is intentional, hell his profile even makes him seem like Goethe’s one in the beginning, it is the separation between myth and history that his character is founded on.

Anyway though sure you might not like Mephistopheles as a Servant and that’s fine that you don’t like it and think it could have gone a better way. the thing I’m saying that the approach that they did went with it actually does have basis, and is as legitimate to my eyes as it can be. It isn’t cop out to me because when I see it and think about it, it makes sense. If you disagree fine, but for me I don’t see any problem, not really.

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Shouldn't any demon/devil/whatever-Meph-actually-is be unsummonable to begin with? Shuten & Ibaraki stretch the rules pretty far, being completely not-human but bound to humanity in some way so as to make their summoning possible, but the western idea of demons/devils/so on are just straight-up inhuman enough that they shouldn't be anywhere near the Throne.

I think the problem more likely is that Nasuverse already have a firm idea on what a demon is, whether true or imaginary and I don’t think either fits well with the classical idea of the devil.

[pinetree]

Thus is my purpose.
In all seriousness though, they look ridiculous. Especially alter. I feel the same about Raikou, but she's already been mentioned, and I don't much care for her anyway.

Their breasts are fine, just give them an artist that is not fucking terrible and preferably a better final ascension design for Lancer Alter.

[Magikewl]

ban ishida already smh

[Ratman]

[QUOTE=Iceblade44;2912988]Did I say anything about Mephistopheles name? I didn’t.[quote]
I did.
He shouldn't have a name tied to something great when he's lame. If he's just a homunculus with scissors that have nothing to do with anything and a bomb vaguely based off a few lines of text, then name him something else. Or scratch the whole concept.
Naming him Mephistopheles confuses the audience and makes them expect something better than they get.

Historical Faust didn’t make any deal with any demon period.

He was a weirdo alchemist who probably died in one of his experiments. The deal with the Devil came about in folk stories based around his weird death or at least that is one theory.

This is approaching the issue in reverse. You are taking the already fucked take on the myth which ruins anything interesting about it, as a fact. The moment they have decided the above is how they are going to interpret Johann Gregor Faust is the moment the servant Mephistopheles was ruined.

also the name Mephistopheles was a thing way before Goethe, note the character in Christopher Marlowe Tragical History of Doctor Faustus whose name is Mephastophilis. See the similarity? I can’t see it possible that Goethe came up with a name when a play with a character by the name had existed nearly 2 centuries before Goethe was born. And if it is older then Goethe, likely it’s even older then Marlowe as well.

You are right about that, but when you say Mephistopheles everyone simply expects an extremely specific character and have no idea that this play even exists, and worse: he isn't nowhere near as interesting as Marlowe's character either. I'll give you a taste from Wikipedia.

Mephistophiles is a demon whom Faustus conjures up while first using magic. Readers initially feel sympathy for the demon when he attempts to explain to Faustus the consequences of abjuring God and Heaven. Mephistophiles gives Faustus a description of Hell and the continuous horrors it possesses; he wants Faustus to know what he is getting himself into before going through with the bargain:

Think’st thou that I who saw the face of God
And tasted the eternal joy of heaven
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?
O Faustus, leave these frivolous demands
Which strikes a terror to my fainting soul! ^[31]

However, Faustus believes that supernatural powers are worth a lifetime in Hell:

Say he (Faustus) surrender up to him (Lucifer) his soul
So he will spare him four and twenty years,
Letting him live in all voluptuousness
Having thee (Mephistophiles) ever to attend on me (Marlowe 15)

Some scholars^[who?] argue that Mephistophiles depicts the sorrow that comes with separation from God. Mephistophiles is foreshadowing the pain Faustus would have to endure, should he go through with his plan.^[32] In this facet, Faustus can be likened to Icarus, whose insatiable ambition was the source of his misery and the cause of his plight.

Nice themes, eh? I'm sure glad we get honkity honk in FGO for it. I need scissors, 61

[LegalLoliLover]

• Give Jack clothes. I actually saw some really good art someone did of a clothed Jack that I thought was pretty good.

And of course, my favorite totally serious suggestion: we all know the only way to fix Shuten-Douji is by making her a buff dude, but leaving him with the current Shuten's outfit.

[Iceblade44]

I did.
He shouldn't have a name tied to something great when he's lame. If he's just a homunculus with scissors that have nothing to do with anything and a bomb vaguely based off a few lines of text, then name him something else. Or scratch the whole concept.
Naming him Mephistopheles confuses the audience and makes them expect something better than they get.

[/FONT]
This is approaching the issue in reverse. You are taking the already fucked take on the myth which ruins anything interesting about it, as a fact. The moment they have decided the above is how they are going to interpret Johann Gregor Faust is the moment the servant Mephistopheles was ruined.


You are right about that, but when you say Mephistopheles everyone simply expects an extremely specific character and have no idea that this play even exists, and worse: he isn't nowhere near as interesting as Marlowe's character either. I'll give you a taste from Wikipedia.

Nice themes, eh? I'm sure glad we get honkity honk in FGO for it. I need scissors, 61

So you main problem is that his name has way more hype then he's is? That is what I get you issue with this. Okay that's fine for you then. I actually don't think that's more of an mistake then your preference. Fate characters aren't supposed to be completely historical and mythical characters, that's something one must accept from the get go, we saw this in the very beginning in SN, examples being Medusa, Gilgamesh, and Angra Mainyu. If you feel that Fate Mephistopheles isn't as interesting as story Mephistopheles and feel disappointed in it that's fine, my argument and point was never about whether you should like it or not, it was whether it has any basis and legitimacy as an interpretation. You can dislike and like as much as you wish, that's fine with me.

If wanting to know my views I don't see as Fate Mephy as being less interesting because he's not the same, to me he is different and I find that interesting. I admit I do get annoyed sometimes with Mephys less serious actions and clownish behavior, but to me I find the inclusion and mix of history and myth to be interesting and fascinating in of itself, and that what makes me like him, that and when seeing him when he acts in the position of a devil, I find that cool. But those are my views on it and only mine since they match my preference, what I find interest in, which is different then yours and that's fine. Since as I said before that was never what I was talking about in the first place.

[RAMPANT]

Oh, nice, I managed to disgust two people in the same day. I'm on a roll. On a side note, does anyone know what that gif is from? it seems really familiar but I can't place it.

Their breasts are fine, just give them an artist that is not fucking terrible and preferably a better final ascension design for Lancer Alter.

Yeah, that'd be fine too. Just as long as those freakish breast-to-everything-else proportions are fixed.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

Oh, nice, I managed to disgust two people in the same day. I'm on a roll. On a side note, does anyone know what that gif is from? it seems really familiar but I can't place it.

Sakura Quest, starring Sakura Quest as Sakura Quest.

[Bloble]

It takes a man (or woman) of culture to appreciate Nasu Blackbeard. Same for Caesar.

Lancer Arturia's tits aren't bad so much as them appearing in her final ascension is bad.

Jack would be perfectly fine in a some hentai or a random edgy battle manga.

Liz is awful. Awfully perfect.

[Deathhappens]

You can be on the throne as long as you have a soul and died
There are robots on the throne

I blame FGO, again.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

That's a fact from FSN.