Yes.Originally Posted by Urameshi Yūsuke
Yes.
Wait what?
...this literally the first time I have ever had any desire to read apoc
Man, even as a joke, you just made me feel worse.
If that pool scene in Hollow is any indication, the ojou blood still burns inside her.
I just want funny cousin moments between Sakura, Luvia, her sister, and Rin Nasu, is that too much to ask?
She doesn't actually show up. Like all the interesting stuff related to Apoc, it's just something that's mentioned in Nasu's Notes.
In Apoc Zouken gave up on life after the Grail was stolen in wwii, so Tokiomi sent Sakura away to the Edelfelt Clan. Rin meanwhile invented a new form of Magecraft using Martial Arts.
So yeah, Apocverse Fuyuki is full of Romcom Shenanigans between Shinobi!Rin and Ojou!Sakura as they fight over an older version of Capsaba!Shirou.
But none of that stuff actually happens in apoc?
And like that, my first desire to read it was smothered in its cradle.
Then I'm doing God's work.
Does that mean that if Sakura hadn't been given to the Matous in the F/sn timeline, she would've most likely been given to the Edelfelts?
O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed you have not already collapsed in ruin.
Kinda sounds like it doesn’t it?
It is literally just hindsight, because they weren't thinking "Oh great we're gonna have a second kid with a one-in-a-bajillion element and ridiculously good circuits", they were thinking "oh great, another kid". If she hadn't been born with Imaginary Numbers or her circuit count, there would've been zero problems, she would've been just Rin's little sister, and maaaaybe a backup heir in case Rin blew her own head off in a magical experiment gone wrong and ended the family line early. It was only thanks to Aoi's freakishly powerful womb and the wonders of RNGesus that Sakura went from just another kid to "holy shit I ordered one diamond over mail order and ended up with two, what the hell do I do with the second one?".
The Crest can't be passed down without blood relations, remember. There are probably dozens of families who'd take in a ridiculously talented kid, but then you could just raise her yourself and end up with a better magus, but a magus that's still not gonna carry on the family work because no Crest.Then right after she was born, and he knew that she and Rin were equally talented, somehow there was nobody better than Zouken in the four years she was with the Tohsaka? That's kinda hamfisted.
Again, good and evil doesn't matter. Tokiomi's thinking was that he was giving her potential, he was getting her into that position where someday she'd be CEO and from there the world's her oyster.Even Zelretch basically said the Einzberns and the Makiri (which are really just Zolgen and has been JUST Zolgen for centuries now) are fundamentally only in magecraft at all for salacious purposes and basically called 'em evil.
Holy shit no. Zouken's not only helped to develop the Grail, he's also kept himself alive since it was created, survived almost half a dozen Grail wars on his land, he heads the local PTA, for crying out loud. To carry on the analogy, it's as if he's giving her to Elon freaking Musk. Sure, stockbrokers and businessmen have been screaming about Tesla going down the plughole for years now, but it's still there, it's still making the headlines, and it's still going into freaking space. She sits on that board for a few years, she's set for life, and can do whatever the hell she wants, who cares if Musk is actually a supervillain building a moon laser or not.Let's look at it logically. The Makiri are not just in a bad turn. To use the business analogy, they've had a one hit wonder, then essentially made bad deal after bad deal afterward, with stocks falling rapidly, and they have rejected help that could have bailed them out for decades. You are putting your new star in the hands of incompetence like that and expecting her to resurrect them from freefall by herself.
Her potential will be crippled by it being another magus family's magic she has to adopt, you have no idea how they'll go about doing that, and Tokiomi himself basically has called the family heretics. That's a Sword of Damocles from the outset nobody deserves, it can't be called anything but bad planning. And the only one that suffers that sword is her.
The way Tokiomi sees it, the old man needs Sakura even more than Sakura needs him. Everything he's worked for for hundreds of years now rides on her, the thought that he might cut his own safety line is so ridiculous it doesn't even register.
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Well, there were an Edelfelt option, I guess? But nah, Tokiomi is magus through and through. I think he was gloating happily about prospect of Sakura or Rin killig each other in the next Grail War, since either outcome would serve as a proof of prestige to the family.
I don't think he was gloating happily, but yes, he probably would have felt any Rin v Sakura dukeout would prove the prestige of the family.
I know, right? Also, when did Luvia have a sister?
Yup, they are related pretty closely by blood. Tokiomi and Luvia's dad were first cousins.
As for the whole analogy as to why Tokiomi actually trusted Zouken, I would agree with the whole magic Trump as opposed to magic Musk analogy. On the outside, things look better than they are since Zouken is such a powerful mage and commands far more respect than his family currently should. If he had done a little digging, Tokiomi would probably have found out that the Matous haven't passed on a magic crest in generations and that every few generations, a new Zouken pops up that looks exactly like the first one like clockwork. If that isn't suspicious, I don't know what is.
Last edited by SirGauoftheSquareTable; August 18th, 2018 at 11:03 AM.
What was the reason for Tokiomi and Aoi not waiting until Rin bit it to have Sakura again?
Not to defend Tokiomi, but I doubt it would be easy for an outsider to find out anything about the Matous' actual family tree. If there's one he'd be allowed to read, it's gonna be packed with aliases and fabrications.
O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed you have not already collapsed in ruin.
Because she wasn't supposed to be a replacement, they just didn't use contraceptives.
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@eddy: It really isn't hindsight unless you totally swallow the fact that he had kids with someone and somehow doesn't know anything about her traits, but a guy down the street does, which is ludicrous.
Normal people take precautions for things like looking up medical history for hereditary diseases before a child is born. Moreover, he had a genius child from a woman that is from a defunct line, maybe there is something special here. Nope, I'm just blessed, pop out the next kid, don't worry about it. You'd at least have the grace to say, "maybe I ought to think about this a little harder than my wife's baby box is good if lightning struck twice" but he clearly didn't, so I don't have much faith in him in the realm of family planning.
Besides, even if she had been lesser, what examples do you have of lesser children being better off and not just married off against their will or raised in ignorance which doesn't sound good at all? Especially because of all the issues just being associated with that family has for you? Means you are ripe for people who have malacious intent toward the family. It's like a clearly dysfunctional more modern version of aristocracy, yet people try to rationalize it. It's perfectly okay to criticize how a culture works.
Your point about being able to cash in if she sat in on the board doesn't hold water because he knows that the stocks have tanked thanks to that supervillain sabotaging his own prospects. The PTA thing doesn't even matter because that is just tricking some normies while you abuse a child at home. We got several politicans being outed as the days go by for pedophilia or sexual scandals, so that's just being good at fooling people.
Zouken literally refused apprentices that could have saved him, nobody but the incredibly gullible Tohsaka came to him now it's so bad. It's not a guy who currently has prestige, it's a rotted old mummy who happens to still have some land thanks to old technicalities, and people use the command seal system because it works. This is the same guy who saw the grail was tainted and still says, yup, let's still use it. This is also a society that tried a teenager for allowing the gate to be closed even when knowing it had All the World's Evil on the other side. Trying to make the analogy of Zouken being a mogul that's just down and out but still has credit seems faulty, he has the land, but other than that, the clout doesn't seem to be there. Especially because of those decades of telling people to kick rocks when they did come to his doorstep, as he himself ruined his own family behind closed doors..
@Gau - IIRC, a craft essence in GO hinted at her having a sibling. Don't know it's backed up in Case Files or elsewhere.
Even Rin herself basically said the agreement between their families was pretty much paper thin archaic schlock that doesn't mean much other than following tradition for traditions sake.
This is what happens when a high dedication stat is bolstered with the fanaticism skill
I don't even think you need to investigate the family tree really. It seems obvious the family is really shady.
Byakuya and Kariya's parents? Gone before they even reached their 30s. Shinji's mother, gone. And I'd bet past generations just up and disappeared in the same way.
@Toby - I think it's an interesting topic even outside of Sakura, since it is a mystery about what actually happened from the conception of the ritual's birth, and what went on with the three Families from start to finish.
Like, Zolgen always gets the "he just had Alzheimers" thing as a joke, but he seemed very much having good faculties from the creation of the war, what caused him to just not bother doing things the right way anymore, and when was it?
Last edited by Altima of the Gates; August 18th, 2018 at 12:00 PM.
It was a joke
First, there's no actual proof that Aoi's actually any better at popping out supermagi than anybody else. Random chance kinda works that way, it's random. Second, do you really expect people who still go with the aristocracy system to be up to date with things like genetics and heredity? Just look at how inbred European aristocracy got- England & France had to send requests to each other asking for a king or queen, just because they ran out of aristocrats and couldn't keep having their literally now retarded, syphillis-ridden cousins banging.
She'd either be a regular person or married to a magus family looking for good lineage, sure. I'm not really arguing anything in that direction, I'm saying that your kid turning out to be a supergenius absolutely does not have any bearing on how your second kid will turn out. What are the chances you'll have two kids who are both freakishly smart and athletic when both their parents are just regular Joes?Besides, even if she had been lesser, what examples do you have of lesser children being better off and not just married off against their will or raised in ignorance which doesn't sound good at all? Especially because of all the issues just being associated with that family has for you? Means you are ripe for people who have malacious intent toward the family. It's like a clearly dysfunctional more modern version of aristocracy, yet people try to rationalize it. It's perfectly okay to criticize how a culture works.
Yes. That's exactly my point. The guy is a model magus in almost every way- as far as anyone else is aware, he's immortal, he's a genius who helped put together a system that summone legendary heroes into the modern age to grant wishes, and in his spare time he ensures the prefecture/town's children are getting a good education. Tokiomi doesn't even know his stocks are tanking because all he sees is Kariya, the scrub who was allowed to run away from his duties as a magus, and Byakuya, who isn't even a good enough magus to stop Kiritsugu grabbing him and torturing him for information.Your point about being able to cash in if she sat in on the board doesn't hold water because he knows that the stocks have tanked thanks to that supervillain sabotaging his own prospects. The PTA thing doesn't even matter because that is just tricking some normies while you abuse a child at home. We got several politicans being outed as the days go by for pedophilia or sexual scandals, so that's just being good at fooling people.
Literally the worst point you may have ever made. The old magus looks a bit creepy, thus, Tokiomi is incredibly gullible.Zouken literally refused apprentices that could have saved him, nobody but the incredibly gullible Tohsaka came to him now it's so bad.
Again, more hindsight.This is the same guy who saw the grail was tainted and still says, yup, let's still use it.
Yes, theThis is also a society that tried a teenager for allowing the gate to be closed even when knowing it had All the World's Evil on the other side. Trying to make the analogy of Zouken being a mogul that's just down and out but still has credit seems faulty, he has the land, but other than that, the clout doesn't seem to be there. Especially because of those decades of telling people to kick rocks when they did come to his doorstep, as he himself ruined his own family behind closed doors..
You're arguing Tokiomi is a gigantic moron, but in the right framework, what Tokiomi did was the work of a master chess player. With that one move, his own asset is stronger, he's advanced his family's goals, he's made a longtime rival into an ally, and he's dropped a massive insult on Kariya, to boot. Then Zouken's next move is to squat on the table and take a shit on the board. He's handed a massive jewel, and all he has to do was cut it, and he'd have ended up rich beyond his widlest dreams. Instead the crazy bastard breaks it.
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@eddyak What do you mean there's no proof Aoi is more likely to pop out supermagi?! It's literally stated in Zero as a trait of the Zenjou, and Tokiomi clearly knew about it, he's the one who told us about it! Also, where was it stated that Rin wasn't deathly ill and Sakura was simply an accident. For such a careful guy, such a mistake seems rather odd, especially since there's probably magical or regular abortion he could use (not saying anything about whether abortion is right or not). And yes, when it comes to judging character, he is a gigantic moron. There were plenty of better, if geographically farther, families Sakura could have been given too. There are PLENTY of old dying families who would LOVE an heir with Sakura's potential and would treat her better. In Tokiomi's defense, I think deep down he may have wanted to see his daughter grow up and check on her much like Rin kind of did before FSN.
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