Fate/Umineko Oneshot Game

[Tangerang]

Well at least you recognize your shortcomings.

Let's get started then cutting down those blue truths shall we?

Illya could have been alive right up until the moment Shirou broke down the door. In that split second, it's possible for her to have been killed by a thrown stake without the others seeing. Since it's not possible to tell how long ago someone died and death from a fatal wound is instant, this murder could have been concealed much like that of the second twilight.

Ilya was dead by the time the door was opened by Shirou.

One of the victims was killed as they were locking their door: A stake was launched through the space between the door and the frame, then the victim locked and closed the door before being struck and killed. In this manner, a locked room can contain no living humans.

A door can only be locked when it is closed. In other words, it is impossible for a stake to pass through the space between door and frame while it is being locked.

One of the "corpses" was merely a living person pretending to be dead. In this manner they fooled the others into believing a murder had taken place. Then, at a later point, they were actually killed, turning the illusion into reality.

Each room in the third twilight contained a corpse prior to the door being opened. And by corpse of course I mean dead body.



Now onto the second half. I believe there were some statements you wanted me to repeat in the red. Ah yes.

"After meeting up in the morning, the group consisting of Shirou, Archer, Kotomine, Assassin, Kuzuki, and Caren did not separate or lose sight of each other until they discovered Lancer's body holding the key to Ilya's room. It's impossible for one of them to have secretly snuck away for any length of time without the others noticing."

Acknowledged. After meeting up in the morning, the group consisting of Shirou, Archer, Kotomine, Assassin, Kuzuki, and Caren did not separate or lose sight of each other until they discovered Lancer's body holding the key to Ilya's room. It's impossible for one of them to have secretly snuck away for any length of time without the others noticing.

"Each room key only locks and unlocks its individual room. No key can lock or unlock more than one room."

Acknowledged. Each room key only locks and unlocks its individual room. No key can lock or unlock more than one room.

"When Illya's body was discovered, all four victims of the third twilight were already dead."

"None of the victims of the third twilight was themselves a culprit."

Hmmm...



I think I'll refrain from repeating those two for now.

[SpoonyViking]

Wait, sorry, how did this end? Or rather, seems it didn't?...

[RoydGolden]

Wait, sorry, how did this end? Or rather, seems it didn't?...

It went past the deadline and no one solved the mystery, so it seems Tang just dropped it.

[Skull]

Nani!? An Umineko detective game and I missed it?

Pardon me whilst I go commit ritual sudoku...

[Tangerang]

As there is still an unsolved closed room, if you feel like it, go ahead and make some new theories or blue truths as you please. I don't mind.

[Skull]

Very well, challenge accepted.

I have read the case details and the Red/Blue Truths stated previously. Now I must sleep, but come the morning I will attack the Third Twilight relentlessly with my four Blue Truth Bullets.

However before that, there is something plaguing my mind about the first two Twilights... while it is true that the "Locked Rooms" had been unlocked thanks to the combined efforts of the participants, if we take the solutions suggested at face value then it appears that the "Culprit" had changed in the Second Twilight (and might do so again in the Third). So my question is that does the game just end if all three Locked Rooms are resolved or is there some sort of bonus round where we have to deduce the identity of the Mastermind that's been going around killing people?

I'm fine either way just curious.

[Tangerang]

We can cross that bridge once we get there, if the final Twilight can be defeated...

[Skull]

We can cross that bridge once we get there, if the final Twilight can be defeated...

Oh, it will be defeated. Consider it my Christmas gift to you. Afterwards, I suppose there's a couple of ways to figure out the Mastermind, maybe I do a "Closing Argument" a la Dangan Ronpa or maybe I cross-examine witnesses who use the Purple Declaration. Well, I'll leave it up to you if you want to continue after I crush this Twilight...

Anyways, let the Roleplay begin!!!

====================

What's this? I wash up out of the river and I smell the delicious scent of despair. But as much as I enjoy a good Killing Game, this isn't one of mine...so I think I'll smash that pesky Locked Room Mystery for you, just leave it up to reliable ol' Monokuma. Puhuhuhuhu...



Let's have some fun and start with a gentle warm up shall we? Despite seeming obvious, I wanna put to rest the cause of death as any half-decent investigation can't begin without establishing that, especially as the Second Twilight revealed that poison was knocking around. So without further ado;

The Victims were not in fact stabbed to death, they were poisoned and whether through in person, an accomplice or through remote method - the Culprit applied the stakes post-mortem.

It's a shame I have to waste a Blue Truth on that, but what can you do when my predecessors had overlooked such a trivial thing.

Aside from poison, there was one other remote murder method I wanted to shut down. It was confirmed via Red Truth that there existed no mechanism "in the guest rooms" that can kill someone, but the mention that there was ventilation ducts concerns me and so I wanted to prod this cattle;

The Victims were killed by the stakes which were fired from outside the guestrooms via the ventilation system.

Anyways, now that that's out of the way let's roll with the assumption that the killer actually entered the room himself and killed the dimwits - er I mean victims. How did he get in or out? Simple! They didn't need a key to get in, only to seal the door after the fact.

The Culprit was invited into the Victim's room and after killing them, left a different key in their possession whilst taking their key to lock the door behind them before moving on to the next person.

Granted, this obviously can't work four times - only two at a maximum. But I'm not so foolish to believe that all four Locked Rooms were created using the same method and if this statement does manage to pass then it'll at least half the number of puzzles.

Keys, keys, keys... It's a curious thing how someone even starts this murder quest as it would immediately require someone else's key to place in the first chronological victims possession. The narration is suspiciously sparse on what happens prior to the murders so maybe it's worth investigating that. Something else that bugs me is how you can lock the door to your guestroom without having to use the key itself, seems somewhat dangerous as if you got lazy you could easily lock yourself in whilst leaving your key elsewhere...or if you had the wrong key.

Prior to their deaths, some or all of the Victims did not have their own keys in their possession.

Well, that's four Blue Truths for now. Nothing too hard for you to refute I'm sure, so don't get cocky as like I said before - this was just a friendly warm-up, my claws have yet to come out... Puhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu!!!!



======

As an aside, if it's just me playing from now on then it might be prudent to remove the "Four Blue Truths per day" limit to keep things moving along, but let's see how this plays out.

[Tangerang]

Okay let's resume this. I might be a bit rusty after all this time hmm....

The Victims were not in fact stabbed to death, they were poisoned and whether through in person, an accomplice or through remote method - the Culprit applied the stakes post-mortem.

The Victims were killed by the stakes which were fired from outside the guestrooms via the ventilation system.

Each of the victims of the third twilight were murdered directly. There were no indirect murder methods such as poison or remote traps.

The Culprit was invited into the Victim's room and after killing them, left a different key in their possession whilst taking their key to lock the door behind them before moving on to the next person.

As you mentioned, that doesn't explain the full lock room chain. Thus there's no need for me to refute an incomplete blue truth.

Prior to their deaths, some or all of the Victims did not have their own keys in their possession.

Same as before, an incomplete blue truth. Thus for now, I'll hold off on destroying this with the red truth.

Also feel free to use as much blue truths or requests for reds as you please.

[Skull]

Phew, after a busy weekend away from the computer, I'm finally back. Only to find...

Hmm... two Truths completely destroyed whilst the other two didn't even manage to leave the gun. Turns out I was the rusty one, guess that's what happens when you haven't touched the series in a while. Nevertheless, I shan't give up without a fight!
===================



Oh no... I'm on the backfoot already, how terrifying these witches are. I still need a few more details before I can start advancing my main theory via Blue Truth but I do possess a rough understanding of how the main events went down, so I guess I can't be so koi anymore in my attempts to fish for information.

Occam's razor suggests that the simplest solution would be to have an accomplice hidden within the Locked Room and once the attention of the Survivors is on the Victim, the accomplice slips away. There aren't many ways this can work in the Third Twilight, what with no 15th person and the fact that the Survivors didn't split up. But nevertheless, it's worth being investigated.

And so I challenge you to repeat this in Red - "Prior to the Survivors opening each door, the Victim of that room was the only person - alive or dead - inside the room."

Aside from that, I sincerely hope this isn't the case but the absolute security of the locks themselves needs to be established. It's been set in stone that someone can only lock a door from the outside with the key, but that pesky fact that you can lock the door from the inside without the key exists and so I can't get that out of my mind even though I doubt it's the solution.

This shouldn't be hard to repeat in Red hopefully - "All doors to the guestrooms were locked by actual people - not through remote means such as a device hidden within the room and later discreetly removed by the Culprit."

Speaking of locks, I won't give up on the issue of keys so easily, especially when they are the key to this riddle.

Repeat this in Red please - "Prior to their deaths, none of the Victims' keys left their possession at any point."

One last Red request to round us out for the time being - "All four of the Victims of the Third Twilight were killed inside their respective guestrooms."

Puhuhu~ The claws are out now, don't think I'll let you escape so easily this time...



========================

I think that perhaps the increase in difficulty for such a game as this stems from the lack of a Detective character who has an objective viewpoint and can invoke Detective's Authority. Not that I'm complaining, just something I noticed since the players have to do extra groundwork that would've normally been covered by the Detective's Piece on the gameboard investigating before the Meta-Game actually starts.

That reminds me, the last two Volumes of the Umineko LNs came out recently and I should get them. <3

[Tangerang]

Hmmm... this time it's a bunch of requests of statements to repeat in the Red Truth. I wonder which ones I should accept and which ones I should deny to achieve the greatest effect...

And so I challenge you to repeat this in Red - "Prior to the Survivors opening each door, the Victim of that room was the only person - alive or dead - inside the room."

Allow me to amend an earlier red truth for an even more complete denial.

Each room in the third twilight contained a corpse prior to the door being opened. And by corpse of course I mean dead body.

And of course those corpses belonged to the victims of the Third Twilight.

This shouldn't be hard to repeat in Red hopefully - "All doors to the guestrooms were locked by actual people - not through remote means such as a device hidden within the room and later discreetly removed by the Culprit."

This theory has already been denied with previous reds.

The only way to lock the doors from the outside is with the usage of their keys. No other method exists to lock the door from the outside.

No room doors possess an auto-lock feature. In other words, doors can only be locked or unlocked when they are closed. Or to get more to the point, it's impossible to lock the door and then close it!

Well, rereading it I suppose you could make a crazy argument about some device X locking the room from within the room, so let me be clear.

There is no device X that can lock a door from within the room. Only a living human can lock the door from inside the room.

Repeat this in Red please - "Prior to their deaths, none of the Victims' keys left their possession at any point."

One last Red request to round us out for the time being - "All four of the Victims of the Third Twilight were killed inside their respective guestrooms."

Hmmm... I wonder...

I'll decline to repeat these in red for now. If you devise a blue truth bullet utilizing these as the base of your theory, maybe then I will slice it apart from the red truth.

Perhaps...

[Skull]

Hmm... I was going to take my time with a few more requests for Red, until I was certain I could get it in one solid Blue Truth, but December is proving to be annoyingly busy and so I'll just have to go on the attack earlier than planned so I can solve this before I depart for the Holidays.

=====================



Well, well, well. Now that the invincible Witch has relented in more than three requests for Red Truths, I think we have enough evidence to launch an opening salvo.

But before that, it's worth reviewing what we know so far for certain as that will help shine a light on the dark core of this mystery:

On the morning of the Third Twilight, the Survivors went to investigate the locations of the missing persons and arrived at Ilya's guestroom first. I suspect it's not a coincidence that they went there first just because "it was closest" as we have confirmed via Red Truth that prior to Shirou breaking down the door that Ilya was already dead and had the Key to Caster's guestroom in her possession. Thus starts the chain of Locked Room Mysteries, however since this Closed-Room Ring is a paradox it stands to reason that it is simply an illusion. Therefore to crack this conundrum, we must consider two things - "When each of the Victims was murdered" and "When each of the Keys exchanged hands". The facts remain that Ilya was found dead first, but we don't actually know where the remaining three Victims were at said time and if they were alive or dead, so they are like the proverbial cats in the box.

And with that....



"It's High Noon Witch", let's see how you fare against my quick-fire shot of Blue Truths!

The night before the Third Twilight, Lancer convinced Ilya into letting him into her guestroom and killed her there. Alerting both Caster and Bazett to Ilya's danger, Lancer lured them into Ilya's room and whilst they were reeling in shock he used that opportunity to kill them both and take their Keys.

He then set up the crime-scenes of Bazett's and Ilya's guestrooms - leaving his own Key in Bazett's possession and Caster's Key in Ilya's possession. Of course Lancer's own guestroom had been prepared in advance and so he set up Caster's guestroom and then used the inside lock feature of the room to hide in and wait until the morning came.

When the Survivors came into Caster's room, the Mastermind made sure to draw everyone's attention to the body and so the concealed Lancer could slip out undetected and headed back to own his room taking Ilya's Key with him and making sure to once again use the inside lock to seal himself in. After the Survivors found Bazett's body they advanced upon Lancer's room with Key in hand.

Lancer lay in wait, ready to fake being a corpse with his partner in crime declaring him deceased. However, disaster struck for Lancer when the door opened and only his partner was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing him and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. They then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Lancer screaming. They then pulled out the Key and unlocked the door to find Lancer's body with Ilya's Key thus creating the Locked Room Chain...

So how was that? Be careful in refuting it as every wrong answer merely discounts another possibility and pushes me closer to the truth...
========================

I suspect I got several details wrong in that attack, but as mentioned at the top of my post, I've taken the shotgun approach to using Blue Truths in order to make up for much lost time. But hopefully, even if something is wrong the fact that Red Truths are required to refute Blue Truths means that I should still get some information to guide me back on the right track.

[Tangerang]

Not bad, not bad. A blue truth that manages to slip through the red truths currently alive.

However, the weakness of the Blue Truth is that I just need to eliminate a single possibility to destroy the entire truth.

With that in mind;

Before, I stated that each room in the third twilight contained a corpse prior to the door being opened. And by corpse of course I mean dead body. Now, I will add a further clarification to that statement. Each room in the third twilight contained a corpse, and only a corpse prior to being opened. In other words, there was nothing alive within the confines of these four rooms.

Therefore it is impossible for Lancer to have been hiding in Caster's room.

[Skull]

Like the Terminator, I am back. Apologies for the delay, life pinned me down and wouldn't let go.

As an aside, there was a Christmas sale on Steam today and so I bought all of Umineko so that I could enjoy it once more on my own. I still need to get the last two LNs though, I'm really curious to see how he handled the multiple endings of the final VN in book form. But onwards...

=====================

Puhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu... there it is, there it is. A decisive Red Truth that pries open the Door to the Truth. Now that I finally have confirmation that the secret wasn't hiding within the Locked Room, it's time to finally "flip the chessboard" as they say and not ponder over "how the culprit managed to do it without hiding in the room" but rather consider "what was in place that the culprit could pull off successive Locked Rooms without needing to stay in any one room".

And as such, are you ready for another Blue Wave?



The night before the Third Twilight, by hook or by crook Lancer managed to get into Ilya's guestroom and killed her there. Alerting both Caster and Bazett to Ilya's danger, Lancer lured them into Ilya's room and whilst they were reeling in shock he used that opportunity to kill them both and take their Keys.

He then set up the crime scenes of each of their rooms, working backwards by leaving his own key in Bazett's hands then locking her door before moving onto to leave Bazett's key in Caster's hands and locking the door before finally returning to Ilya's room and left Caster's key in her hands before locking the door and taking Ilya's key with him. He then hides himself, either in his room or in the corridor - somewhere where he could observe the Survivors heading to the Banquet Hall in the morning, and after he saw all of them go he headed to Ilya's room and set up the painted sigil on the door and then moved onto the others while being careful to avoid detection by the Survivors whether by precise timing or hidden compartments in the corridor or whatever. Once Lancer was done with Bazett's door, he returned to his room and used the inner lock function to seal it as he no longer had his own key. After the Survivors found Bazett's body they advanced upon Lancer's room with Key in hand.

Lancer lay in wait, ready to fake being a corpse with his partner in crime declaring him deceased. However, disaster struck for Lancer when the door opened and only his partner was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing him and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. They then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Lancer screaming. They then whipped out the Key and unlocked the door to find Lancer's body with Ilya's Key thus creating the Locked Room Chain...

============================

I know that "a secret hidey hole within the corridors" sounds completely ridiculous, but this is what I mean by my earlier comments about the teething problems of roleplays such as this, as the floor layout of the mansion wasn't described in the narrative, it's unclear if it's possible to move within the corridors without being seen by another person.

Also, yes I know I was lazy and copy-pasted the bits of my Blue Truth that remained unchanged, fite me.

[Tangerang]

I see. A thoroughly twisted logic that manages to evade the blades of the red truth. Unfortunately its still not prefect enough.

Caster and Bazett died within their own rooms. They were not killed inside Ilya's room.

[Skull]

Our duel is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of theory, denial and re-evaluation continue on forever. But it's time to bring this to a close.

Imma powering up to my final form!!!



The night before the Third Twilight, by hook or by crook Lancer managed to get into Ilya's guestroom and killed her there. Then he proceeded to go to both Caster and Bazett's guestrooms, convincing them in turn to let him in and murdering them shortly afterwards.

He then set up the crime scenes of each of their rooms, working backwards by leaving his own key in Bazett's hands then locking her door before moving onto to leave Bazett's key in Caster's hands and locking the door before finally returning to Ilya's room and left Caster's key in her hands before locking the door and taking Ilya's key with him. He then hides himself, either in his room or in the corridor - somewhere where he could observe the Survivors heading to the Banquet Hall in the morning, and after he saw all of them go he headed to Ilya's room and set up the painted sigil on the door and then moved onto the others while being careful to avoid detection by the Survivors whether by precise timing or hidden compartments in the corridor or whatever. Once Lancer was done with Bazett's door, he returned to his room and used the inner lock function to seal it as he no longer had his own key. After the Survivors found Bazett's body they advanced upon Lancer's room with Key in hand.

Lancer lay in wait, ready to fake being a corpse with his partner in crime declaring him deceased. However, disaster struck for Lancer when the door opened and only his partner was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing him and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. They then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Lancer screaming. They then whipped out the Key and unlocked the door to find Lancer's body with Ilya's Key thus creating the Locked Room Chain...



Phew, transformation of Blue Truth complete. How do you like my 100% form?

[Tangerang]

Forgive me for the delay, holidays and all that. Now, back to business. You certainly seem to be fixated on the idea of a 'Lancer culprit' theory. Unfortunately for you, such a thing is as easily torn apart as paper...!

Lancer did not kill Bazett! Furthermore, Lancer and Bazett died at roughly the same time!

Now what will you do with your scapegoat gone?

[Skull]

Apologies for the super long delay, New Year's celebrations, my birthday and then moving my place of work all in the same week kept me super busy.

I'll be able to start constructing a new blue truth theory tomorrow, but to keep you waiting warmly until then I do have a Red Truth request.

I was looking back through our debate thus far to remember what Red Truths had been stated previously so we don't retread old ground and I noticed something in particular and I wanted you to confirm it for me.

And so, I ask of you to repeat this in Red: "Lancer died in his own Guestroom."

[Tangerang]

Sure thing, for whatever help it gives.

Lancer died in Lancer's guestroom.

[Skull]

Though one Red Truth may be small, when they are woven together they make an unbreakable chain that, uh...where was I going with this metaphor?

Anyways, through the power of CONNECT FOUR!!!

Each of the victims of the third twilight were murdered directly. There were no indirect murder methods such as poison or remote traps.

Caster and Bazett died within their own rooms.

Lancer died in Lancer's guestroom.

Furthermore, Lancer and Bazett died at roughly the same time!

It stands to reason that the killer could not be in two places at once when killing Lancer and Bazett. Therefore, I deduce that there was indeed an accomplice in this crime!

Finally making progress. Now, where to go from there? Hmm... it's easier to maintain that one of the Victims was in on it so I'll continue with that line of attack. I haven't tried anything with Caster yet:

The night before the Third Twilight, Caster and an associate - we'll call them "Mr.X" entered into the rooms of Lancer and Bazett and killed them. Shortly thereafter they gained access to Ilya's room and killed her. They then set up the interiors of the crime scenes, locking the door of a victim's guestroom and then placing the key in the next person in line. Caster then hides herself, either in her room or in the corridor - somewhere where she could observe the Survivors (and Mr.X) heading to the Banquet Hall in the morning, and after she saw all of them go, she headed to Ilya's room and set up the painted sigil on the door and then moved onto the others. Once all that was done, Caster returns to her room with Bazett's key and since she is without her own uses the inside lock mechanic to seal her door and waits to be found "dead" as declared by Mr.X...

However, disaster struck for Caster when the door opened and only Mr.X was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing her and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. Mr.X then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Caster screaming. They then whipped out the Key and unlocked the door for the Survivors to find Caster's body with Bazett's Key thus creating the illusion of the Locked Room Chain...