Could Sola-Ui have loved/fallen in love with Kayneth if the dude was less of an asshole from the start?

[forumghost]

I resent that accusation. I NEVER started this thread to just bash Kayneth, even if I as an individual am doing so.

I mean I know that it might seem odd for me to say since I've been taking pot-shots at him too, but the thread title literally calls him an asshole.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I mean I know that it might seem odd for me to say since I've been taking pot-shots at him too, but the thread title literally calls him an asshole.

True enough, but I was legitimately curious and wanted to hear others' opinions. That, and I did change my mind about the original question of this thread because as it turns out Sola was a Yandere Simulator protag and Kayneth could do nothing about that. The current debate is whether he was pathetic or not and how much of the situation is his fault. Personally, I still think he's pathetic despite his very real skill.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

What the hell does Sola-Ui have to do with Yandere Sim? What part did I miss/skip?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

What the hell does Sola-Ui have to do with Yandere Sim? What part did I miss/skip?

Her description in the Zero mats matches almost identically with that of the protagonist of Yandere Simulator. I've pointed this out about 3 times or so.

[OverMaster]

I mean I know that it might seem odd for me to say since I've been taking pot-shots at him too, but the thread title literally calls him an asshole.

That isn't the case here obviously, but one still can love a character dearly even while being well sure said character is a complete asshole, or even because of it.

Yeah, like that time he put Waver down for his theory, which we've already established was entirely justified within the framework of magi, and which the narration even agrees was the right thing to do and that Waver is the crybaby.

I think the big difference is, while Waver still starts the biggest baby, he can grow and change into a better person, while all Kayneth does is going downhill instead. They're mirrors of each other in a way, and although their respective Servants and separate circumstances have a lot to do with how each man turns out, there's no denying, I think, the story tries telling us is Waver is the one who can become a better man from his ordeals and Kayneth's the one doomed to succumb from them.

And 'the framework of magi' is kind of a morally weak leg to stand on judgement of someone's character since magi are overall assholes with tendencies both self destructive and destructive for others. I know the magi-coddling bias is strong for some people in this board, but at some point the 'but their different culture' excuse kind of has to stop working. Kayneth was technically completely right on the faults of Waver's thesis, but a teacher still has to be the bigger and better man and not to just go off on a self-wanking boast humbling even the worst technically wrong student. That's all sorts of non-working within a proper educational system, except because, well, the magus educational system is not well designed to be actually educational about magic (with most students being intended as targets for use rather than formation and development, which is the basis of a genuine educative system).

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I think the big difference is, while Waver still starts the biggest baby, he can grow and change into a better person, while all Kayneth does is going downhill instead. They're mirrors of each other in a way, and although their respective Servants and separate circumstances have a lot to do with how each man turns out, there's no denying, I think, the story tries telling us is Waver is the one who can become a better man from his ordeals and Kayneth's the one doomed to succumb from them.

And 'the framework of magi' is kind of a morally weak leg to stand on judgement of someone's character since magi are overall assholes with tendencies both self destructive and destructive for others. I know the magi-coddling bias is strong for some people in this board, but at some point the 'but their different culture' excuse kind of has to stop working. Kayneth was technically completely right on the faults of Waver's thesis, but a teacher still has to be the bigger and better man and not to just go off on a self-wanking boast humbling even the worst technically wrong student. That's all sorts of non-working within a proper educational system, except because, well, the magus educational system is not well designed to be actually educational about magic (with most students being intended as targets for use rather than formation and development, which is the basis of a genuine educative system).

This. This so much. I couldn't have said it better. This is the reason I find magi so frustrating, and besides, it may be a different culture, but it doesn't prevent it from being objectively stupid.

[forumghost]

This. This so much. I couldn't have said it better. This is the reason I find magi so frustrating, and besides, it may be a different culture, but it doesn't prevent it from being objectively stupid.

Wow, calling other peoples cultures objectively stupid.

What a bigot.

[Dullahan]

'objectively'

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Wow, calling other peoples cultures objectively stupid.

What a bigot.

It is when it destroys everyone involved, including its practitioners.

[Dullahan]

perhaps - even allowing the magus 'society' a kind of objective existence, which is probably too much - there is a reason works of fiction tend to focus on the failure modes rather than the successes of it

[forumghost]

It is when it destroys everyone involved, including its practitioners.

It doesn't destroy everyone involved though. Just the ones that don't git gud.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

It doesn't destroy everyone involved though. Just the ones that don't git gud.

That's like 99% of magi, and even then, you basically need to be born with some huge advantage to git gud, so it's not really gitting gud in the first place, just being good or lucky, and even then, the lengths even the good ones go can get self-destructive.

It's also not really much of a society if everyone is constantly on their watch for the treachery of others with VERY little sense of cohesion or cooperation. That, and their lack of human perspective means they do some things no sane individual would do because said things are stupid and dangerous with little to no plus sides.

- - - Updated - - -

perhaps - even allowing the magus 'society' a kind of objective existence, which is probably too much - there is a reason works of fiction tend to focus on the failure modes rather than the successes of it

You know I only used objectively as a hyperbolic modifier.

[Mcjon01]

TIL that wealth, superpowers, near-immortality, and a path to becoming god aren’t “plus sides”

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

TIL that wealth, superpowers, near-immortality, and a path to becoming god aren’t “plus sides”

You could still have superpowers without going on the path of a magus, so no. Also, the wealth doesn't truly matter to magi, and any decent spellcaster could gain enough wealth. The near immortality is only attained by a select few, and the path to Akasha isn't worth it.

[Mcjon01]

I mean that’s cool that you personally think so and all but please realize that as someone who doesn’t want omnipotence and omnicience you are in fact in the minority of human beings by a large margin

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I mean that’s cool that you personally think so and all but please realize that as someone who doesn’t want omnipotence and omnicience you are in fact in the minority of human beings by a large margin

Eh, being a godlike being is kinda overrated. Also, while omniscience is cool, I admit it isn't possible in real life, and in the Nasuverse, I'd say it's not worth the struggle. There are better things to do with that time. That being said, I'd rather go the route of trying to find Enlightenment a la Saver than the path of a magus because it's more about self-improvement.

[Menwearpink]

I mean a magus is a person who does think that it is indeed, worth it. Super powers aside, it’s a way of life and a dedication that’s beyond most normal people.

If you want a cushy life just live as a normal person tbh..

for the idea of magus society bring full of explosions and people fucking themselves up? Well you have politicians like anywhere, and then you have people who just read books. Every once in a while someone thinks a larger scale experiment or ritual is worth it as a working model of their end goal, or as some big project they think is actually worthwhile. Sometimes that ends up a bullet in some people’s heads and other nasty things. But you also seem to think that they just go whatever and almost actively go for that?

Finally? I don’t understand why Kayneth’s response makes him automatically a bad teacher. Considering Waver’s thesis was drivel on a level where one should ask him if he is of clinically handicapped intelligence, or if he does indeed think his own farts smell like daisies.

Hint he was ridiculously full of himself.

There are other ways, some better perhaps. But in the end a stupid thing was called very stupid. There are many teachers who will definitely do that.Which was retaliated to with the theft of a very noteable artifact.Christ young Waver.

[eddyak]

You could still have superpowers without going on the path of a magus, so no.

Not... really. For the most part, abilities we've seen in the Nasuverse are almost entirely what you're born with. You don't get a choice as to whether you have demon blood that's going to drive you slowly insane, you don't get to choose whether you can turn your blood into spikes or drain the heat from anything in your sight, or bend anything that exists. Shinji's from a magus family, with every possible advantage in that field going for him, but because he wasn't born with circuits he can't do shit. Shirou can only sort-of project and reinforce for like ten years, till Rin and/or Archer tell him "duh you idiot you're doing this when you're specialised for that", and only then can he do things with any level of competence. Satsuki went straight to DA despite the thousand to one chance purely on some vaguely defined affinity for vampirism.

[forumghost]

Yeah but Kirei was able to fuck a tree to death with nothing but a little Martial Arts Training.

Also I think he was talking about how you can be a Magic User rather then a Magus, because Magi are big smelly jerkfaces that bully Waver or something.

[Deathhappens]

mahoutsukai
majutsushi
madoushi
mahou shoujo/shonen/apache hericoputeru
Jutsusha
Majõ

You're gonna have to be more specific.