Unpopular TM opinions you have

[Inuhanyou]

To be honest, I never cared for the romance aspect of Saber and Shirou.

The others I like, but I just could never buy the fact that they built up this massive, eternal love by the end of the story.

Sure, I get that each one has aspects the other embodies, but Shirou has some that make Saber move out of her guarded zone, but it doesn't change the fact I could never look at their story and buy them building this romance in like 14 days.

But maybe thats my love of the Keiko and Yusuke Urameshi style of romance talking.

I liked Yusuke and Keiko's relationship for what it was because the writing was very tight anime wise(and the fact that they already had a relationship that bordered on love before the story started also helped)...but i'm one of those people who generally don't take to relationships that clearly supplant one or the other like other takes on that type of relationship tend to be in anime or manga.

Keiko herself tended to be more of a non entity more than anything in the series despite being properly portrayed as Yusuke's human chain, and characters just being defined by their love interests have the potential to go wrong if the characters and writing arent strong enough to hold it up, which certain mainstream shounen show to a very disparaging degree (inoue, hinata ect). I've even had my criticisms of Sakura to some extent with that, although i respect HF infinitely more as a story than i do a lot of others i could name with similar characters archetypes, some of which i've already mentioned.

As for Arturia and Shirou, i think your draws against Shirou and Arturia are fair, i've heard them before and i've respected those views. But I feel like it really fits the fantastical fantasy "soul mate" ish setting the story is going for, and the development in the story from both characters perspectives works on a powerful level even if i feel like there are many improvements that could have been made to make it much better than i thought it was.

Even if the two week time frame does indeed feel too fast, i feel like the same criticism can technically be applied to all the relationships in the story in that sense, and Shirou's character development over that time. I don't think it would have been too hard for Nasu to stretch out the grail war for a few months at least, the same events could technically take place over such a time and be more realistically spaced out.

But i guess when your fighting a magical death war in which you have to make snap choices, depend on people and really come face to face with the reality of a situation to survive, any major changes to your outlook on life and the people around you can be excused to a certain degree.

Are there ways you felt Rin could've been more emphasized in her own route?

Not really, just due to the structure of how the VN ended up and what priorities were emphasized in the route itself. Honestly considering that, Nasu did the best he could under those circumstances i feel.


The route is about, for the most part, Archer and Shirou's ideals and coming face to face with what Shirou does peering into the end result, and all the other characters pretty much are intended to take a backseat to it being Shirou's(or Archer more specifically) route more than anything. For it to truly be Rin's route, i feel like a completely different story would have been necessary, but then it would not be UBW.


FSN itself is shared between Rin and Shirou in prominence of screentime...so technically saying UBW is Shirou's route is somewhat misleading since all the routes are Shirou's that he shares with other people(Shirou/Arturia, Shirou/Archer, Shirou/Sakura/Illya ect)

[Altima of the Gates]

To be honest, I never cared for the romance aspect of Saber and Shirou.

The others I like, but I just could never buy the fact that they built up this massive, eternal love by the end of the story.

Sure, I get that each one has aspects the other embodies, but Shirou has some that make Saber move out of her guarded zone, but it doesn't change the fact I could never look at their story and buy them building this romance in like 14 days.

But maybe thats my love of the Keiko and Yusuke Urameshi style of romance talking.

If we're going for old timey shounen, then Yanagi x Recca is my preferred pick of couple. Yusuke/Keiko frustrated me a tad because he really should have had the sorting feelings thing down post Dark Tournament, and we're supposed to just think they were an item all along. No wonder his half assed confession before leaving for Makai left her nonplussed.

And I feel you on not getting the 2 week romance, even if technically Rin did have feelings prior to the war and they were mutual with Shirou's crush. I found that one almost weirder than Saber, since she harbored such strong feelings for him, but never even a word beyond a hello between then for years.

[Urameshi Yūsuke]

If we're going for old timey shounen, then Yanagi x Recca is my preferred pick of couple. Yusuke/Keiko frustrated me a tad because he really should have had the sorting feelings thing down post Dark Tournament, and we're supposed to just think they were an item all along. No wonder his half assed confession before leaving for Makai left her nonplussed.

And I feel you on not getting the 2 week romance, even if technically Rin did have feelings prior to the war and they were mutual with Shirou's crush. I found that one almost weirder than Saber, since she harbored such strong feelings for him, but never even a word beyond a hello between then for years.

What do you mean? Yusuke went all in, making that plunge most shonen are never shown to do and straight up proposed!

More seriously if I have any issues with Yusuke and Keikos relationship it's that togashi negated one of the DT arcs main themes, which was accepting your time on earth and but still living life to the fullest, and made Yusukes speech about want to grow old with Keiko null and void since hes gonna outlive her by several millennia.

Infact, that Yusuke never once showed worry about his now non human state of being is one of the things that seriously irked me.

I always assumed, that much like everything else in Rins life, she just pushed aside her feelings for what she assumed she had to do to follow the path of a magus.

But she even so, she never could forget the feeling of watching this boy push himself to overcome the impossible.

[warellis]

In both Tsukihime & Fate, is the romance between the male lead & foreign heroines pushed pretty quickly? Because I forget how long the events of Tsukihime are in-game.

Does anyone remember?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

The speed of the romance isn't really my personal issue. I just feel UBW's is more real and heartfelt because it's mostly expressed through trust and affirmations of loyalty.

[warellis]

For the Fate route I always felt it was the date day, and day 15, that really got Shirou & Saber together.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

For the Fate route I always felt it was the date day, and day 15, that really got Shirou & Saber together.

Well yeah. Before then, it was just an irritating twice shy-esque situation in which Shirou is annoyingly sexist and Saber is emotionally withdrawn and unwilling to open up. I'm glad UBW didn't give Shirou nearly as much opportunity to be sexist.

[warellis]

Well yeah. Before then, it was just an irritating twice shy-esque situation in which Shirou is annoyingly sexist and Saber is emotionally withdrawn and unwilling to open up. I'm glad UBW didn't give Shirou nearly as much opportunity to be sexist.

People don't seem to realize Saber looks like a 14-year old girl, as in even younger than Sakura, and then Shirou watched her, as the route keeps on reminding you again and again as if you're an idiot, take a large enough gash to the side that she's kneeling and clutching her blade to keep from slumping fully onto the ground.

Seriously I don't know how I would react if I had a Servant that looked as young as Saber did and had fallen in love at first sight with them.

Personally I always got the feeling that made it so hard for Shirou is how damn young Saber looks.

Seriously, she's like a just entering first-year highschooler.

I mean hell how much worse would Shirou's "gotta protect muh Servant" issue be if he got one of those kid-looking Servants summoned?

I get the feeling if she looked like an adult, Shirou would be more accepting I guess?

[Inuhanyou]

Well yeah. Before then, it was just an irritating twice shy-esque situation in which Shirou is annoyingly sexist and Saber is emotionally withdrawn and unwilling to open up. I'm glad UBW didn't give Shirou nearly as much opportunity to be sexist.

People really take the wrong aspect of Shirou's character and overstate the accusations of sexism. He was using that as an excuse to hide from his PTSD and not wanting to see her specifically hurt, which as we know is always a big part of Shirou's character regardless of the route. He even admits it to himself right after he claims as much. He literally stops right after he decides to call for her during Shinji's assault on the school, when he realizes that he needs to put Arturia as a partner over his own wish to not want her to be hurt.

People not understanding the themes is a big frustration.

[warellis]

We know about that theme. I always felt it was that and the horror of seeing someone looking so young taking such a blow that pushed his overprotectiveness through the roof.

I mean every other Servant in both the 4th & 5th Grail Wars is, or looks, like an adult

Saber on the other hand, is stuck at the low-end of teenage development, to the point that in Ataraxia people say she could enroll in Homurahara as a new student.

Somehow I can't imagine say Rider being able to convince anyone she's a highschool student. A school nurse yes, but not a high school student.

I mean, appearances can really affect perception and I get the feeling most people would be deeply uncomfortable with a pre-teen to very young teen getting hurt in front of them.

[Inuhanyou]

For the Fate route I always felt it was the date day, and day 15, that really got Shirou & Saber together.

That was the most overt parts of things, but Arturia had clearly slowly growing feelings for him long before that, through the change in her just talking with Shirou around the house opening herself up more. her being self conscious to being seen as a person rather than a solider/servant simply to fight in the war, and of course all the stuff that happend in the Einzbern forest after Shirou gets kidnapped.

Its subtle but it all grows up to the point where Shirou admits to himself that he loves her after he goes to see Kotomine.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

People really take the wrong aspect of Shirou's character and overstate the accusations of sexism. He was using that as an excuse to hide from his PTSD and not wanting to see her specifically hurt, which as we know is always a big part of Shirou's character regardless of the route. He even admits it to himself right after he claims as much. He literally stops right after he decides to call for her during Shinji's assault on the school, when he realizes that he needs to put Arturia as a partner over his own wish to not want her to be hurt.

People not understanding the themes is a big frustration.

He also expressed plenty chauvanistic views towards Rin, Taiga, and Mitsuzuri. Admittedly, I get the themes, I just found his whole rationale quite irritating.

[Inuhanyou]

Like i alluded to earlier, there are certain things i would make clearer and even change in a hypothetical Fate route remake...i feel like Shirou's goal should have been to have Arturia accept herself as a person rather than the meandering he did trying to convince her to stay in the modern world for a lot of the content of the final days, which kinda had no reason to be there despite him coming to terms with it in the end giving the ending a bit more gravitas.

[Urameshi Yūsuke]

In both Tsukihime & Fate, is the romance between the male lead & foreign heroines pushed pretty quickly? Because I forget how long the events of Tsukihime are in-game.

Does anyone remember?

Been a while since I read it, but I think it was like 10 days?

Well yeah. Before then, it was just an irritating twice shy-esque situation in which Shirou is annoyingly sexist and Saber is emotionally withdrawn and unwilling to open up. I'm glad UBW didn't give Shirou nearly as much opportunity to be sexist.

It's not so much sexist as Shirou constantly getting reminded of when Berserker damn near split Sabed in two.

And the same time, he knows he can't really argue properly against her fighting other servants since they are so far beyond him, so he back pedals on the whole "boy must protect girl thing" and his own ideals that he must be the one doing the saving.

People really take the wrong aspect of Shirou's character and overstate the accusations of sexism. He was using that as an excuse to hide from his PTSD and not wanting to see her specifically hurt, which as we know is always a big part of Shirou's character regardless of the route. He even admits it to himself right after he claims as much. He literally stops right after he decides to call for her during Shinji's assault on the school, when he realizes that he needs to put Arturia as a partner over his own wish to not want her to be hurt.

People not understanding the themes is a big frustration.

Not so much understanding themes and understanding the characters.

I think anyways.

[warellis]

Well for one he treated her decently unlike Kiritsugu who either spoke to her only three times (what Saber claims in the.VN), or more but still shat on her a lot (what apparently actually happened).

Kind of amazing Saber didn't just chop of Kerry's head when you get down to it.

Patience of a saint.

[Bobin]

UBW is more like the start of a new couple's romance you can't say where the winds will take them in the end. If we're talking about relationship development, Sakura, the childhood friend equivalent lol, would actually make the most sense since considering how long they already knew each other for the part and why they're thought of as the rocking chair couple. Saber is the one that resonances with Shirou at the heart which is why she gets to be mystical soulmate who's very figure imprinted on his soul eternally regardless of the choices made and waits in Avalon. Just reminding you why she's the poster girl!

[Inuhanyou]

He also expressed plenty chauvanistic views towards Rin, Taiga, and Mitsuzuri. Admittedly, I get the themes, I just found his whole rationale quite irritating.

That has more to do with Nasu injecting his weird views onto things then than the relationship between Arturia and Shirou, no? Though i definitely agree that i would have definitely fully scrubbed those weird one off lines however. Like the one where Mitsuzuri gets attacked and he's like "well maybe that will make her a bit more feminine". WTF, those lines dont have any excuse to be in there and even clash with Shirou's character when it comes to protecting people, that's Nasu's fault for sure

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Well for one he treated her decently unlike Kiritsugu who either spoke to her only three times (what Saber claims in the.VN), or more but still shat on her a lot (what apparently actually happened).

Kind of amazing Saber didn't just chop of Kerry's head when you get down to it.

Patience of a saint.

Actually, in Zero, I don't think Kerry spoke to her more than 4 times, and maybe 3? I haven't bothered to count.

[warellis]

He also expressed plenty chauvanistic views towards Rin, Taiga, and Mitsuzuri. Admittedly, I get the themes, I just found his whole rationale quite irritating.

He doesn't express them on Rin or Mitsuzuri or Taiga at all.

Hell Rin mentions how people think Mitsuzuri is thought of as pretty manly and how Mitsuzuri doesn't like that. In fact I think she also teases Mitsuzuri about it.

As for Taiga honestly Rin isn't that much better than Shirou there.

Like i alluded to earlier, there are certain things i would make clearer and even change in a hypothetical Fate route remake...i feel like Shirou's goal should have been to have Arturia accept herself as a person rather than the meandering he did trying to convince her to stay in the modern world for a lot of the content of the final days, which kinda had no reason to be there despite him coming to terms with it in the end giving the ending a bit more gravitas.

Honestly that fits in with the whole "do the right thing even if it hurts" mentality he has though I'd say.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

UBW is more like the start of a new couple's romance you can't say where the winds will take them in the end. If we're talking about relationship development, Sakura, the childhood friend equivalent lol, would actually make the most sense since considering how long they already knew each other for the part and why they're thought of as the rocking chair couple. Saber is the one that resonances with Shirou at the heart which is why she gets to be mystical soulmate who's very figure imprinted on his soul eternally regardless of the choices made and waits in Avalon. Just reminding you why she's the poster girl!

You can say because we have plenty of evidence of how things will go, but otherwise, I do agree. For some reason though, Rin and Shirou's romance really speaks to me, probably because of the partnership elements and the fact that no matter how you play UBW, Rin, Shirou, and Saber really become a close-knit 3-man team.