I meanOriginally Posted by Deathhappens
Yeah?
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He saved the universe
I mean
Yeah?
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He saved the universe
Tokiomi is a failed Tokiomi, who is also a failed Kayneth, who is a failure.
> summons a hot guy Servant famous for stealing his boss's wife
> acts surprised when his arranged bride who hates him falls for said Servant
that's kayneth
Sola didn't actually HATE him, but the rest is true. And thus, Kayneth is a failure all on his own.
Speaking of, Sola does kind of fit a diagnosis of Schizoid Personality Disorder, or at least she did prior to love spot.
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Also, Diarmuid was a last-minute acquisition, which is kind of impressive in perspective.
He lost the girl, lost most of his friends, and ended up a literally nobody teaching brats how to drill coconuts.
Sure, you can say he chose the way he ended up and he could've gotten himself a cushy job being a figurehead if he wanted to instead, but I'm pretty sure he'd be even more miserable there.
IDK, one of the things I loved most about TTGL is that it managed to blend all its over-the-top-ness and utterly ridiculous powerlevels with very real character drama; no matter how strong you can punch, the best (the only) thing you can do for the dead is remember them. Seeing Yoko as an old maid teaching the next generation and Simon as a middle-aged geezer Wandering the World with nobody knowing he was the hero who made it all possible was very poignant and bittersweet... but happy end, it wasn't.
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To be fair, Kayneth didn't know Sola hated him, because not even Sola knew Sola hated him until she met Diarmuid.
shit BL says
Once and always and nevermore.
Again, Sola didn't exactly hate him, just felt nothing about him or anything until the Love Spot allowed her to feel for the first time.
Sola and Medea are pretty similar of chasing after fake loving while not caring about its nature and origin.Then you have Ophelia and Bryn for more real stuff.
You mean Medea in backstory, right? In that case, yes. Also, did Odin curse Brynhildr to fall in love with her rescuer or want to kill those she loved?
By "successful" I didn't mean as to live happily ever after. Simon the Digger accomplished what he set out to do, that is to carve a path for those who will then travel through it (which is exactly what he did). And yes, that bittersweet ending was fantastic. Hell, pretty much everything about TTGL is top notch.
I would argue that its not effective storytelling, because it goes much too far. Essentially, the narrative is not being an effective storyteller by being too effective at what you stated.
You as a viewer are not supposed to come out hating Arturia as an ineffectual character who has to get shitted on by everyone in the show for her characterization in Zero(which a lot of secondaries end up doing), but sympathetic for her plight which leads into FSN by seeing why she believes in what she does as well. That's why i say the narrative from Urobuchi's portrayal is skewed. You as the viewer are supposed to be shown the events in an objective fashion, even if the character of Arturia herself is going through this character arc, enough to see different sides of the situation.
But urouchi's execution of said plot points in important cases isnt attempting that, its clearly attempting to make it so that the kind of heroes he doesnt like are shown in an extremely cynical and negative fashion despite Nasu never having that as the intention of her character arc...which is the problem.
The nasu urobuchi dynamic in these kinds of cases, because it contradicts the different methods of looking at the story.
It would be like FSN trying to force the idea that Archer is right about everything because he's a cynical SOB in UBW and Shirou's a naive child, instead of showing different perspectives between Shirou and himself to see why both feel the way that they do.
Everyone shits on Shirou in FSN for being someone who places others above himself and helping others. But the narrative itself doesnt attempt to portray these views as inherently correct or incorrect either way.
Last edited by Inuhanyou; July 10th, 2019 at 06:07 PM.
What? Literally one of the things Nasu okayed Urobutchi to do before the story was planned out was to have lots of Saber bullying.
One of the things Nasu said was to portray Arturia in a fashion where the reader would come out hating her by attempting to portray her entire kingship and worldview as flawed and idealistic and therefore bad in its entirety..the exact opposite conclusion of her character arc in Fate route?
If he did say that, then i am somewhat confuzzled.
Its one thing if Arturia thinks that, its another if the narrative itself is telling the viewer that they should think she is wrong too. Not about going back and trying to fix the country, but about how she ruled in general, compared to other Kings. Which is why i originally brought up the banquet scene
Last edited by Inuhanyou; July 10th, 2019 at 06:21 PM.
If you came out of that scene hating Saber, then you probably already hated Saber and didn't want to admit it. The main thing to take away from that scene is that Saber was sitting on a high horse thinking her way was the only way to be a king.
I mean, technically you could say that about both of the others as well, which is why it was somewhat weird to see urobuchi's attempt to portray her as a weird overly pompous character who goes on about chivalry and "how things should be" to others(especially when we saw none of that in FSN proper, rather the opposite with both lancer and arturia calling out gil for being a crazy sob who did whatever he wanted), just to get talked down to about she's a stupid dumb dumb for calling out the guys about their value system.
Even when Shirou would do that, he wasnt portrayed as a fool by the narrative, but someone who believed in his own sense of justice fitting such a warped individual, even when other characters would feel sympathy for him or enemies would mock him...that's kind of how i was hoping she would have been.
Which comes back around to the issue i have been bringing up, that the narrative in Zero says something completely different from what her character arc is, and that i wished that Nasu had not given Urobuchi the reigns to portray her in such a light.
Last edited by Inuhanyou; July 10th, 2019 at 06:34 PM.
Why?
There's no such thing showing the events in an objective fashion anyway.
Your issue seems to be like people are shitting on Saber because they watched Zero first and you don't like it.
Urobuchi has gone on the record to say that he wrote Zero to be read after reading FSN anyway.
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
Of course, one might argue that the difference between Shirou and Arturia's character arcs is that he wasnt wrong inherently, and she was. But my main point is that she wasnt wrong about how she lead her life, rather how she wants to go back and change it, both in Zero and FSN. But Zero does not really portray that at all.
Her character arc in zero is "I'm terrible and everything I did was wrong."
The narration in zero is "You're terrible and everything you did is wrong."
The narrative is exactly the same as her character arc in the work.
In FSN her character arc is learning the nuance behind her past and the narrative of course approaches that with the necessary nuance.
So, I don't see what the issue is?
The aim of the separate works is to do different things. There's the steep fall (Zero) and there's the realization (SN).
Last edited by You; July 10th, 2019 at 06:47 PM.
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
Can’t we all just agree gen is a worthless hack and then be friends
Isnt that incorrect? Because FSN does objective story telling very well. Having a character say something about another character does not inherently make it what the story is attempting to tell the viewer.
"Just because your correct doesnt mean your right" and all that.
I have an issue with Zero in itself by giving a strange portrayal of the character, as i have been saying...if the entire banquet scene had been about for example, the wishes of the characters and what they would like to do and have the other characters shit on Arturia for that, it would have been fine, because it concerns the character arc of her story.
But having the narrative attempt to invalidate an entire worldview of a character? That's precisely why i dont like people getting into Zero first to begin with, because it gives the wrong impression of the Fate story if watched in a vacuum to begin with.
As i said, the viewer isnt supposed to think Arturia is terrible, she is supposed to think she is terrible, because the other characters say so. The intent should not be to attempt to make her unlikable in the eyes of the viewer.
Last edited by Inuhanyou; July 10th, 2019 at 06:52 PM.
Imagine that, the King of Knights, who is called that because of her being known for promoting chivalry and all that, is upset when presented with others that don't give a damn about it.
The scene did a good job showing everyone's faults: Iskander admits wholeheartedly that he is a hedonistic narcissist that has no qualms with trampling over others as long as it entertains him or furthers his desires, Saber is like the saying of being in love with the idea of being in love, and Gilgamesh is, well, Gilgamesh.
It must be me because I don't understand why exactly this is a problem. The events of Zero take place before SN, so why would SN showing how Saber came to accept and forgive herself for her perceived failure have anything to do with how her character is built up in Zero? You can't have SN's character arc for Saber in Zero without it really screwing things up in terms of the overall narrative.Which comes back around to the issue i have been bringing up, that the narrative in Zero says something completely different from what her character arc is, and that i wished that Nasu had not given Urobuchi the reigns to portray her in such a light.
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