Unpopular TM opinions you have

[Walnut Sparks]

He isn't right because he doesn't convince anyone of anything except that she did things the wrong way. Hell, all it does is convince her that she's right about her wish for the Grail. Gil even tells her right after Isk leaves that she isn't wrong, and to carry on with her own path, even if he was being all rapey shoujo love interest rapey when he did.

I'm not arguing about whether Alex made his point or whether his point made any sense, only about the show's presentation of it. When a show has one person keep on driving the argument while the other struggles to answer and is near tears, the impression is that the other doesn't really have an answer. As for Gil, his followup dwelt entirely too much on Saber's self-inflicted suffering for "You were correct" to seem like an honest assessment. I've just rewatched the scene and it's as bad as I remembered.

- - - Updated - - -

The BGM was definitely on Alex's side too.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Not 1/10th of her strength
Not necessarily a full-powered Excalibur, just whatever she could muster at the time.

Ok, correction. 1/10th of her leg strength, and degraded arm strength. I would counter that, since it also explicitly stated that she wouldn't even be able to block weak attacks, she's to the point of barely standing, which is substantially worse than simply not being able to move a thumb in one arm, and otherwise being in peak condition. Also, whether or not it's perfectly at the peak of Excalibur, it was at least the vast majority of its power considering it made a gap in Ea's attack at all. Artoria injured in Fate/Zero is indicated to not be able to use Excalibur by much at all (source book even going so far as labeling it as anti-unit). I got some details wrong, but the point still stands.

look at the crowd of people bravely standing up in unison and en masse saying i know it's not popular but zero isn't good

I said it was overrated and explicitly stated I still think it's good. Something can be overrated and good at the same time. It's just not worth all of the praise it gets. It still good enough to act as a standard for all the other off-shoots to be measured against, and all the current animated spin-offs don't measure up to it.

That's the thing, though- Zero doesn't ever tell you he's right. It does seem to frame it that way, but the end of the argument is basically Iskander covering his ears and yelling "I'M NOT LISTENING I'M NOT LISTENING YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG", and Saber wrestling with the one part of his argument that hit home. Hell, she even says during the argument, "Why am I listening to you? You two are tyrants!", and Iskander goes "Well obviously!"

Explicitly? No, because that would be a 4th wall break. However, the fight against Lancelot was about as blatant as it could be(quoting him multiple times). Berserkalot's character more or less just existed to be a bulletin board for Alexander's point. This isn't even factoring in that Artoria being convinced by a servant that she wasn't a proper king is a direct contradiction to what she told Shirou. She said that she thought this way since her final battle. So, it all being said and done, Fate/Zero was made as a story where Artoria's ability for self-reflection was reconnected, and her opinion that she expresses in the Fate route was ultimately her being convinced by Alexander's terrible argument alongside the grief of dealing with Lancelot.

[Deathhappens]

Or the opposite extreme with Arturia Alter popping Iskander's head off, like a bottle cap, for his insolence.

She'd have to stand on a box to reach it.

[Deathhappens]

Also, every time we have this post I remain baffled as to how difficult it really is to accept that in a debate multiple answers can be "right" at the same time. Artoria did what she thought was best for her people. Iskander did what he thought was best for his people. Gil... well, he did whatever the fuck he wanted, but what he wanted just so happened to be to look after his people. Artoria comes across as wrong and beaten because she refuses to accept her efforts were doomed from the start and instead hangs on to the ridiculous notion that everything can be made better by some magical wishing cup deleting her existence.

[SpoonyViking]

Haven't read the novel, but in the anime, the framing of the scene clearly favours Iskandar.

[Deathhappens]

So?

[You]

Ok, correction. 1/10th of her leg strength, and degraded arm strength.I would counter that, since it also explicitly stated that she wouldn't even be able to block weak attacks, she's to the point of barely standing, which is substantially worse than simply not being able to move a thumb in one arm, and otherwise being in peak condition. Also, whether or not it's perfectly at the peak of Excalibur, it was at least the vast majority of its power considering it made a gap in Ea's attack at all. Artoria injured in Fate/Zero is indicated to not be able to use Excalibur by much at all (source book even going so far as labeling it as anti-unit). I got some details wrong, but the point still stands.

Her wound cannot be healed. Most likely, the curse of the golden spear will not be dispelled until the spear itself is destroyed, or its owner Diarmuid has fallen.

Saber must break through Lancer's twin spears with her remaining right hand. With the aid of prana bursts, single-handedly wielding her sword would not be too painful. But the strength that could only be delivered with both hands was sealed, and she can not use her ultimate attack: Excalibur • Sword of Promised Victory.

However – At this moment, far from cowering down, Saber's fighting spirit soared.

Saber once again felt worried with the fact that she can’t use her left hand. She has to use prana bursts to compensate her lack in strength when she’s only using her right hand to wield her sword. In this situation, any extra spending of prana is a burden heavier than anything else.

Originally, if she could hold the hilt of this sword with both hands – using one blow of Excalibur • the Sword of Promised Victory should completely vaporize this filthy trash.

Although it was an unavoidable regret, Saber could not help but consider it. Even with the exceptionally powerful Noble Phantasms possessed by Rider and Archer, it will not be enough to fell this monster. No matter how large a force they use to trample it, it is meaningless if all its injuries can be regenerated from instantly. To defeat this horror, one must simply deliver a strike that covers it entirely, obliterating it down to the last scrap of flesh ― what is needed is not an Anti-Army, but an Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm.

Excalibur could achieve this, but Saber could not use it now. The fatal secret technique which releases in a single blow an enormous surge of energy rivaling her entire prana supply; no matter the circumstance, for her to use it, she must swing the sword with both hands.

Inno, seems like Excalibur's hard locked to be swung with both hands.
It's not a matter of arm strength

[forumghost]

Saber is a Magical Girl after all, it's only natural that she strikes a pose to perform her finishing move.

[warellis]

Haven't read the novel, but in the anime, the framing of the scene clearly favours Iskandar.

I think that might be the issue. It's been some time since I last read the novel but IIRC it was more neutral, or at least had Saber getting sort of pissed back whereas, from what people have mentioned in the anime she just stood there and took the verbal abuse?

Saber is a Magical Girl after all, it's only natural that she strikes a pose to perform her finishing move.

But where is her magical wand?Don't magical girls generally use wands?

[Rafflesiac]

She blew up Caliburn to show that she was no longer a girl but an Adult and a King

[Bugs]

Saber's wand is located under her dress, courtesy of Merlin.

[Walnut Sparks]

Also, every time we have this post I remain baffled as to how difficult it really is to accept that in a debate multiple answers can be "right" at the same time. Artoria did what she thought was best for her people. Iskander did what he thought was best for his people. Gil... well, he did whatever the fuck he wanted, but what he wanted just so happened to be to look after his people. Artoria comes across as wrong and beaten because she refuses to accept her efforts were doomed from the start and instead hangs on to the ridiculous notion that everything can be made better by some magical wishing cup deleting her existence.

None of which has anything to do with what I said.

[eddyak]

I'm not arguing about whether Alex made his point or whether his point made any sense, only about the show's presentation of it. When a show has one person keep on driving the argument while the other struggles to answer and is near tears, the impression is that the other doesn't really have an answer. As for Gil, his followup dwelt entirely too much on Saber's self-inflicted suffering for "You were correct" to seem like an honest assessment. I've just rewatched the scene and it's as bad as I remembered.

- - - Updated - - -

The BGM was definitely on Alex's side too.

Yep, that was definitely him stealing the show like he tends to do- it was his chance to show off his path of kingship... and then he later gets spanked by both of the other kings.

He wasn't even arguing that his way was right, he was just arguing that hers was wrong. She tells the two of them off for being villains, then says her own piece, and he gets pissed off and goes off on a rant all about how she did the bad. Meanwhile she's already said the piece that should've discredited anything they both had to say- that they were tyrants, not the kind of king she would ever want to be.

Explicitly? No, because that would be a 4th wall break. However, the fight against Lancelot was about as blatant as it could be(quoting him multiple times). Berserkalot's character more or less just existed to be a bulletin board for Alexander's point. This isn't even factoring in that Artoria being convinced by a servant that she wasn't a proper king is a direct contradiction to what she told Shirou. She said that she thought this way since her final battle. So, it all being said and done, Fate/Zero was made as a story where Artoria's ability for self-reflection was reconnected, and her opinion that she expresses in the Fate route was ultimately her being convinced by Alexander's terrible argument alongside the grief of dealing with Lancelot.

She wasn't convinced that she wasn't a proper king, the other two kings stood in opposition to everything she ever thought a king should be- she just thought her way of kingship was flawed, and solidified her hopes that somebody else could pull the sword from the stone and do a better job.

Saber's wand is located under her dress, courtesy of Merlin.

But that is no longer a magical girl, in several ways.

[SpoonyViking]

So?

You're right, what's so important about framing in a visual work?

[Dullahan]

I don't know how people watch the banquet of kings without seeing that Hassan was clearly the one in the right

[eddyak]

I don't know how people watch the banquet of kings without seeing that Hassan was clearly the one in the right

Hassan spilled some perfectly good wine, and ruined a perfectly good shirt. There was nothing righteous there.

[Dullahan]

alcohol is haram

[Ratman]

The banquet is rigged against Gilgamesh. Both Iskandar and Artoria are characters that are supposed to be sympathetic, Saber because she's cute, and Rider because Waver is cute. They get a good antithesis to their ideals, her in the banquet itself, and him in the Excalibur scene. Gil is left to be his bastard self, and his character development has to wait until CCC. It's just not fair.

[BeastXxx]

Kinoko Nasu does not understand humans.

[Dullahan]

Do you?