Mysterious Story of the Imperial Capital Holy Grail - Fate/type Redline

[fumei]

wut?

This sort of time loop implies that time (and all of history along with it) is a fixed, closed circle. There's no starting point, and no ending point, time just repeats itself endlessly. Like Quoren said, this also implies that everything is predetermined, and free will is a lie.

Either way, this sort of loop has a ton of "issues" like this, but the answer is always that it's "internally consistent" because the entire thing is a closed loop, which is another reason why this is the worst trope. But we'll see how it's handled here, especially since "time as a stable" (closed loop) doesn't really fit with the rest of TM's timeline stuff.

[Yggdrasil]

This sort of time loop implies that time (and all of history along with it) is a fixed, closed circle.

No. It implies that some of the events in the timeline section involved in the loop are in a fixed, closed circle. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[fumei]

Well you say that, but if you dive deeper into the consequences of that case then you'd see that you're basically forced to have everything as a closed circle.

Regardless, when the story itself takes place entirely within such a loop (which is the case with basically every story that uses this ever), then the difference is moot.

[Yggdrasil]

Well you say that, but if you dive deeper into the consequences of that case then you'd see that you're basically forced to have everything as a closed circle.

You don't know what you are talking about, that's all.

[fumei]

Well that's a bit rude, but I guess since you show no intention of explaining it properly to me, the conversation is over.

[Hawkeye]

I suspect you probably put more thought into it than the illustrator did.

I suspect you're correct, but I enjoy thinking about these things. XD

Well that's a bit rude, but I guess since you show no intention of explaining it properly to me, the conversation is over.

I'll take a crack since Yggdrasil decided to be rude about it. If you think about time like a string, if you create a branch in it that doesn't return to the main time, you fray the string and these branches end nowhere, but if you loop the string, you can create a knot that doesn't damage the overall thread and carries on after the knot. Having this knot in the string doesn't require that the two ends of the string also be connected. Basically only the events in the loop are predetermined in anyway and even then only with whatever factors are included in the loop, everything else is fairly malleable between itterations. Like how EMIYA participated in a grail war in his lifetime, but then manifests in a 5th war completely unlike the one he was in.

I hope that helped somewhat, I may have just rambled bullshit for a paragraph there, but tl;dr is basically that only the light novel and Kanata's presence here would seemingly be fixed factors, what happens to him after the set parameters of the loop could be entirely different from timeline to timeline from like Zelretch's perspective. We could debate the whole nature of freewill and determinism in this framework all the same, but for fixed points from an outside perspective you only need to consider the bare minimum to keep the loop intact, after that, anything else is open to interpretation.

[Quoren]

I suspect you're correct, but I enjoy thinking about these things. XD



I'll take a crack since Yggdrasil decided to be rude about it. If you think about time like a string, if you create a branch in it that doesn't return to the main time, you fray the string and these branches end nowhere, but if you loop the string, you can create a knot that doesn't damage the overall thread and carries on after the knot. Having this knot in the string doesn't require that the two ends of the string also be connected. Basically only the events in the loop are predetermined in anyway and even then only with whatever factors are included in the loop, everything else is fairly malleable between itterations. Like how EMIYA participated in a grail war in his lifetime, but then manifests in a 5th war completely unlike the one he was in.

I hope that helped somewhat, I may have just rambled bullshit for a paragraph there, but tl;dr is basically that only the light novel and Kanata's presence here would seemingly be fixed factors, what happens to him after the set parameters of the loop could be entirely different from timeline to timeline from like Zelretch's perspective. We could debate the whole nature of freewill and determinism in this framework all the same, but for fixed points from an outside perspective you only need to consider the bare minimum to keep the loop intact, after that, anything else is open to interpretation.

It's more that the nature of the loop being predetermined means there cannot be free will because it wasn't their choice to go back. They didn't make the decision to go back and alter time, but time was already altered. There was no start, and there is no finish. They had to go back for time to go forward, but time is always going forward because they always went back. Also, introducing a continuous loop to a string means there's two versions of yourself stuck in an eternal loop in time. It mostly depends on how the time travel mechanics of the series work, but stable time loops are the most Nasu-style "don't think about it."

[Hawkeye]

It's more that the nature of the loop being predetermined means there cannot be free will because it wasn't their choice to go back. They didn't make the decision to go back and alter time, but time was already altered. There was no start, and there is no finish. They had to go back for time to go forward, but time is always going forward because they always went back. Also, introducing a continuous loop to a string means there's two versions of yourself stuck in an eternal loop in time. It mostly depends on how the time travel mechanics of the series work, but stable time loops are the most Nasu-style "don't think about it."

Well lots of things can happen outside of free will. I can get hit by a bus. I could not make a train all Sliding Doors style. Just cause an event is predertemined doesn't mean the free will of those involved is infringed. I get what you're getting at, but that's why I was talking about factors. The only two things required for the time loop to work are the existence of the light novel and Kanata activating the hourglass. After that, any number of variable factors could change and maintain the time loop.

Having said all that, my personal favourite on that one mechanically was Homestuck (Yes, I'm one of those) where so long as stable timeloops were meaintained, the one involved remained the 'alpha' version, while any failures resulted in broken timelines cause the loops didn't ring back to the original timeline.

[Quoren]

Well lots of things can happen outside of free will. I can get hit by a bus. I could not make a train all Sliding Doors style. Just cause an event is predertemined doesn't mean the free will of those involved is infringed. I get what you're getting at, but that's why I was talking about factors. The only two things required for the time loop to work are the existence of the light novel and Kanata activating the hourglass. After that, any number of variable factors could change and maintain the time loop.

Having said all that, my personal favourite on that one mechanically was Homestuck (Yes, I'm one of those) where so long as stable timeloops were meaintained, the one involved remained the 'alpha' version, while any failures resulted in broken timelines cause the loops didn't ring back to the original timeline.

As I said, it depends on the time travel mechanics, but an absolute time loop with no start and no end literally means everything is predetermined. The string of time is complete and non-branching, unlike tree timelines like Back to the Future where any change just generates a new future and you lose your old future forever, or Terminator that has a singular string that completely cuts the string and begins anew any time someone goes back in time, no branching at all.

[Hawkeye]

As I said, it depends on the time travel mechanics, but an absolute time loop with no start and no end literally means everything is predetermined. The string of time is complete and non-branching, unlike tree timelines like Back to the Future where any change just generates a new future and you lose your old future forever, or Terminator that has a singular string that completely cuts the string and begins anew any time someone goes back in time, no branching at all.

Guess we just have to wait and see. I did have an image saved that went over the various types of time travel, it had like fixed timeline, dynamic timeline and multiverse variants. Still, nice talking to you about it, though I imagine even with years of philosophy we'd never get a solid answer on the free will thing. XD

[fumei]

I hope that helped somewhat, I may have just rambled bullshit for a paragraph there, but tl;dr is basically that only the light novel and Kanata's presence here would seemingly be fixed factors, what happens to him after the set parameters of the loop could be entirely different from timeline to timeline from like Zelretch's perspective. We could debate the whole nature of freewill and determinism in this framework all the same, but for fixed points from an outside perspective you only need to consider the bare minimum to keep the loop intact, after that, anything else is open to interpretation.

Yeah, it's just I'm more leaning toward what Quoren is saying, and about how like, for a time loop like this to exist in the first place, that is, to actually get into the loop, the events of the loop need to have already happened. In other words, for the loop to happen, the loop must've already happened. It's basically eternalism. I'm not sure on this one actually, but I imagine that for a loop to function like your string example, then the loop needs to be able to close, or time would not be stable/solid, in which case we're now dealing with entirely different takes on temporal onthology, but the initial question was one related to time as a solid so that's all I'm going for here tbh.

- - - Updated - - -

Guess we just have to wait and see. I did have an image saved that went over the various types of time travel, it had like fixed timeline, dynamic timeline and multiverse variants. Still, nice talking to you about it, though I imagine even with years of philosophy we'd never get a solid answer on the free will thing. XD

Spoiler:

Though some who deal in this stuff would argue that multiversal theories are not part of the "time travel schtick" because it deals with dimension/universe hopping more than it does traversing time directly.

[Hawkeye]

Aye, that's the very picture! And I agree, I wouldn't of called it multiverse in that regard so much as branching timelines, wherein each variable produces a new branch. This is pretty much what the Extra series and Strange Fake run off. Though that in turn might be why time travel is considered in part of Zelretch's magic since time is a dimension by which universes can be broken up. Anyway, I'm gonna bow out on this one cause I'm quite deep in a bottle of vodka and I don't think I'll add anything to the discussion from here on out. XD

[ballinamon]

You know, all this talk started because I didn't understand how a person could be theorically their own grandpa, for genetic issues and someone answer me before that that didn't matter in the time loop but it didn't was enough to convice me but after thinking about it step by step, more or less I thought it possible. So, the steps should be something like this.

1. YOU travel to the past.
2. YOU bang grandma, that is: YOU + grandma = son/your father
3. Son/father + mother = YOU
4. Repeat from step 1

Now, genetically talking, step 3 is where seems a bit weird to me, the idea that your father (or mother could be this situation) and another person somewhat makes you, their original parent.

[madarra]

Genetic atavism if Grampa is blue eyes blond, and his wife is just boring brown the child can turn out boring brown, marry another boring brown person, the grandchild still has a 1 in 16 chance of turning out blue eyed blond.

Now the chances of inheriting all your genes from grandpa and looking like his is worse tha winning the lottery, but like winning the lottery, its a shit ton more likely when time travel stories are involved.

[Deathhappens]

This conversation is everything I hate about time travel stories, goes DOUBLE for whenever it's a story of Japanese origin because they sure love themselves some M. Night Shyamalan 'plot twists'.

[mami-kouga]

We're probably not going to deal with that here at least as long as Kanata tells his grandma the truth.

[madarra]

Thats what you have trains, ambulances and fireworks for.

[Hakuno]

https://web-ace.jp/tmca/contents/2000014/episode/512/

New chapter

[Endabend]

Anyone recognize the markings on those planes? The circle with two rectangles sticking out is identical to an American one, albeit the central symbol historically was a star, and not... whatever that six pointed symbol was.

[BananaShiki]

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