SMT/Persona: General Discussion (P4 Arena, P4 Golden, P5, SMT: IV, Etc.)

[Gilgamesh]

Persona 3 isn't exactly a Shin Megami Tensei game. It's a Megami Ibunroku, some kind of spin off. It's some sort of Atlus USA quirk to put the "SMT" label in everything and Persona 3 and 4 definitely aren't. But that's just a little point I'm making here.

What I'm talking about here is the general feeling of the games. Comparing Strange Journey, or Nocturne, or even the old SMT games to Persona 3 or 4 we can see they don't have that much in common beyond some gameplay elements. The themes are different, the atmosphere is much more important and the "You against the world" feeling is a lot more marked. Not to mention the Law vs. Chaos duality present in the main saga's games. No Loki raping teachers either. Oh wait, that was in the novel. Never mind.

My point is that, yes, they play similarly and with lots of variations while keeping the basis, but the themes and development are pretty different. That's why I said it could give a "wrong" idea, with the quotation marks.

That because in Japan, games only get the label of "Shin Megami Tensei" if they are part of the "main/original" series. But SMT does not refer specifically to that, when we use it here, we refer to the overall franchise. Games like Persona 4 and Devil Summoner 2 may not be called "Shin Megami Tensei" in Japan, but they are still very much part of the Megaten franchise, and the developers themselves refer to them as such. And "Megami Ibunroku" does refer to it as a spin-off, but spin-offs are still part of the overall franchise/series. And especially considering series like Devil Summoner and Persona have more games and are more well known than the "main SMT series", it's silly to pretend they are any less "main" than what gets labeled SMT in Japan. That's why Atlus USA adds the SMT name to them.

[Uberchoco]

And especially considering series like Devil Summoner and Persona have more games and are more well known than the "main SMT series", it's silly to pretend they are any less "main" than what gets labeled SMT in Japan.

I don't like to see it the way you do. More games? Not really. The Shin Megami Tensei saga has SMT1, 2 and If, SMT Nocturne and SMT Strange Journey, which makes it 5. Persona has 4 games (2 is in two parts) and Devil Summoner are 4.

Also, notice the names? "Megami Ibunroku" means "Alternate Story of the Goddess" while "Shin Megami Tensei" means "True (or new) Goddess Reincarnation". That "alternate" should give a hint on what Atlus considers the alternate saga of the Megami Tensei/Megaten (not Shin Megami Tensei) franchise and which the main one. The Persona games were branched from a "what if" of the main series, SMT If... .

And as I said before, I was talking about the original flavor of the franchise, with dark atmosphere, many endings and YHWH and Lucifer trolling each other.

[Gilgamesh]

I don't like to see it the way you do. More games? Not really. The Shin Megami Tensei saga has SMT1, 2 and If, SMT Nocturne and SMT Strange Journey, which makes it 5. Persona has 4 games (2 is in two parts) and Devil Summoner are 4.

If is, well, iffy. It's non-canon and easily considered a spin-off as well. I don't consider it part of the "main" line just like I don't consider Imagine part of it. But if you want to, sure that brings the "main" line up to 5 games instead of 4. But, like it or not, P2 is two separate games with unique storylines with one being a direct sequel to the other. If you could both P2 games as one game, then I could easily say I consider SMT I and II to be one game as well. Not to mention all the cell phone games, like Persona Social or Persona Ain Soph or whatever. Persona also has an anime, and Persona 5 is in development. Like it or not, Persona is greatly overtaking the "main" series.

Also, notice the names? "Megami Ibunroku" means "Alternate Story of the Goddess" while "Shin Megami Tensei" means "True (or new) Goddess Reincarnation". That "alternate" should give a hint on what Atlus considers the alternate saga of the Megami Tensei/Megaten (not Shin Megami Tensei) franchise and which the main one. The Persona games were branched from a "what if" of the main series, SMT If...

False... kinda. "Alternate Story of the Goddess" is a very loose translation, but it works enough, all it means though is that it is a "spin-off", which nobody is arguing. As for the "Shin" in Shin Megami Tensei, you are reading way too into it. It's just what they added to SNES games in Japan. If it had come out in America back then it would have been called "Super Reincarnation of the Goddess".

And Persona IS NOT derived from SMT If. There are references to If in Persona 1, yes, but they are just that. References. It's no different from having SMT II references in Devil Summoner, Soul Hacker references in Devil Survivor, or Catherine references in P3P. Just references, nothing more.

And as I said before, I was talking about the original flavor of the franchise, with dark atmosphere, many endings and YHWH and Lucifer trolling each other.

Yeah, okay, and? My point has been from the start that we are talking about two different things. People were asking for suggestions on what games they should use to get into the Shin Megami Tensei FRANCHISE, which includes and is largely dominated by what you consider "spin-offs". Shin Megami Tensei can either mean the "main" series or the franchise overall.

[04satsujinki40]

Also, notice the names? "Megami Ibunroku" means "Alternate Story of the Goddess" while "Shin Megami Tensei" means "True (or new) Goddess Reincarnation". That "alternate" should give a hint on what Atlus considers the alternate saga of the Megami Tensei/Megaten (not Shin Megami Tensei) franchise and which the main one. The Persona games were branched from a "what if" of the main series, SMT If... .

yeah. from what I know. the Persona series is a spin-off or something. i knew that it wasn't really SMT but since they always put SMT in the boxes, im starting to think it is. but it really isnt. it's a good thing im reminded.

and for P3 bosses lol Thunder Call. Unless the mofos null or absorb electricity.

[Gilgamesh]

yeah. from what I know. the Persona series is a spin-off or something. i knew that it wasn't really SMT but since they always put SMT in the boxes, im starting to think it is. but it really isnt. it's a good thing im reminded.

It isn't part of the "main" SMT canon/series, but it is very much part of the overall SMT franchise. The SMT franchise is split into many sub-series and spin-offs.

[Uberchoco]

If is, well, iffy. It's non-canon and easily considered a spin-off as well. I don't consider it part of the "main" line just like I don't consider Imagine part of it. But if you want to, sure that brings the "main" line up to 5 games instead of 4. But, like it or not, P2 is two separate games with unique storylines with one being a direct sequel to the other. If you could both P2 games as one game, then I could easily say I consider SMT I and II to be one game as well. Not to mention all the cell phone games, like Persona Social or Persona Ain Soph or whatever. Persona also has an anime, and Persona 5 is in development. Like it or not, Persona is greatly overtaking the "main" series.

We may interpret it as we want, but the importance of the SMT saga is still the same.

Which was the one which appeared first.

With its base on the original Megami Tensei games.

And Persona IS NOT derived from SMT If. There are references to If in Persona 1, yes, but they are just that. References. It's no different from having SMT II references in Devil Summoner, Soul Hacker references in Devil Survivor, or Catherine references in P3P. Just references, nothing more.

References? I think it's beyond simple references. Some characters in If serve as base for Persona characters and the timeline is suggested to be the same, as far as I'm concerned.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Tamaki_Uchida

Yeah, okay, and? My point has been from the start that we are talking about two different things. People were asking for suggestions on what games they should use to get into the Shin Megami Tensei FRANCHISE, which includes and is largely dominated by what you consider "spin-offs". Shin Megami Tensei can either mean the "main" series or the franchise overall.

I'm not considering them spin-offs. They ARE spin-offs. And the franchise is Megami Tensei. Shin Megami Tensei is one of the sagas included in the franchise. I may sound like a picky asshole, but that's what it is.

But yeah, we've been talking about different things here and got a bit sidetracked. Hard to avoid, huh.

[Gilgamesh]

We may interpret it as we want, but the importance of the SMT saga is still the same.

Which was the one which appeared first.

With its base on the original Megami Tensei games.

If you want to get so technical, then just because SMT has a "base" in the original two NES games than it doesn't make them connected to it. The "SMT saga" you refer to is NOT the original. It's a completely different series and canon from Megami Tensei and Megami Tensei II.

References? I think it's beyond simple references. Some characters in If serve as base for Persona characters and the timeline is suggested to be the same, as far as I'm concerned.

The worlds are not connected. It's just a reference that the character is the same. Just like having Vincent in P3P and having Soul Hacker characters pop up in Devil Survivor, or having characters in Devil Summoner refer to the events of SMT II. It doesn't make them part of the same world or series.

I'm not considering them spin-offs. They ARE spin-offs. And the franchise is Megami Tensei. Shin Megami Tensei is one of the sagas included in the franchise. I may sound like a picky asshole, but that's what it is.

But yeah, we've been talking about different things here and got a bit sidetracked. Hard to avoid, huh.

You aren't just coming off as picky, but annoyingly cocky and arrogant too. And it's a completely fan-chosen thing to refer to the greater franchise as "Megami Tensei". Just because that is what the franchise is listed as on Wikipedia means nothing. Not a single game has been referred to that since the NES. They have all carried the "Shin" tagline. And YES, what Atlus USA says does count, because it's still the official company of Atlus deciding what to call the games. Even if DDS is called "Avatar Tuner: Digital Devil Saga" in Japan, they decided to call it "Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga" in America, setting up "Shin Megami Tensei" as the overall franchise's legitimate name.

[Uberchoco]

If you want to get so technical, then just because SMT has a "base" in the original two NES games than it doesn't make them connected to it. The "SMT saga" you refer to is NOT the original. It's a completely different series and canon from Megami Tensei and Megami Tensei II.

...And which keeps most of the basis set by MT and SMT I and II. I wasn't trying to get so technical anyway.

The worlds are not connected. It's just a reference that the character is the same. Just like having Vincent in P3P and having Soul Hacker characters pop up in Devil Survivor, or having characters in Devil Summoner refer to the events of SMT II. It doesn't make them part of the same world or series.

If... is a world where the Great Destruction doesn't happen, and the Persona world seems to keep that same condition. Both games share characters and stuff.

You may interpret it as you like, but I definitely can't see it as a simple reference.

It's a common thing in the MT universe... Hijiri, in Nocturne, for example, is a very important character in the game's story, and is suggested to be Aleph from SMTII, undergoing YHWH's punishment.

Several of the worlds are connected, I'd say, in one way or another, be it due to characters, or story elements, or by the existence of the demons themselves being shared between them. It makes sense if you think about it.

You aren't just coming off as picky, but annoyingly cocky and arrogant too.

Look, it wasn't my intention. I was just trying to call things by their original names and stating my facts. I can deal with the saga being called whatever in other countries; I was just making my point, which is that I don't like what Atlus USA is doing.

And it's a completely fan-chosen thing to refer to the greater franchise as "Megami Tensei". Just because that is what the franchise is listed as on Wikipedia means nothing.

I think not. Also, wasn't the old official Japanese website (not working anymore) dedicated to the MT franchise called www.megamitensei.jp?

[Chaos Greyblood]

Not only that, but that's where the franchise in general has come from. It even started with the first known game called Digital Devil Story, damn it! And even more so, they've come from the original novels. I wonder if someone will find and translate them one day...

[Uberchoco]

Look and see!

http://ddstranslation.blogspot.com/2...-table-of.html

[Gilgamesh]

Look and see!

http://ddstranslation.blogspot.com/2...-table-of.html

Haven't read the novel myself, but I heard it's a bit trashy and very different from (and not nearly as good as) the games. I'll probably give it a chance sometime, but just thought I should put that out there.

If... is a world where the Great Destruction doesn't happen, and the Persona world seems to keep that same condition. Both games share characters and stuff.

And yet if we were to consider that enough grounds to say they are set in the same world then all the Devil Summoner games have to be the same world as the main SMT series as well since they have a connection mentioned in the first Radiou game to it, which in turn means that Devil Survivor would have to take place in the world of the main SMT games as well since it has Devil Summoner Soul Hacker characters in it. But then, Persona also makes heavy reference to Devil Summoner games as well, meaning that they have to take place in the main SMT world as well. And in fact, SMT If has SMT I characters in it, meaning it has to take place in the same world as well. And of course, despite Catherine not being in any way related to SMT and Vincent not living in Japan, he has to be because he was there in P3P.

Yeah, I know I am being a sarcastic ass now, but I don't see how just because a character in Persona is a character from If make them share the same world. SMT does this ALL the time. Like all of the examples I listed above, it doesn't mean that the worlds are the same just because developers like to make nods to the other games in the franchise. I mean, for crying out loud they make references to Persona 2 being a video game in Persona 3. Sometimes you just need to take some of these references in stride, especially considering P2 and P3 take place in the same world.

Several of the worlds are connected, I'd say, in one way or another, be it due to characters, or story elements, or by the existence of the demons themselves being shared between them. It makes sense if you think about it.

Connected? As in, related in some way but not the exact same world/timeline? Now we can get into something I can agree to. Personally, I just look at all these sub-series and spin-offs as alternate realities. In many of them events get played out somewhat similarly, and even in ones where events play out drastically different, such as the Persona-verse, thanks to the references and easter eggs, you can still make a connection. But doesn't that in and of itself somewhat take away from your overall argument of not considering them part of the same series as the main SMT line?

Look, it wasn't my intention.

That's fine. I've come off sounding worse than I intended at times myself, rereading some of my posts...

To skip ahead a bit, first, though...

I think not. Also, wasn't the old official Japanese website (not working anymore) dedicated to the MT franchise called www.megamitensei.jp?

Alright, when it comes to the name you give the overall franchise, I really don't care. You may feel that calling it "Shin Megami Tensei" is wrong and it should just be called "Megami Tensei", but it doesn't really matter. Atlus has called it both, and you may dislike Atlus USA's choice in using "Shin Megami Tensei", but it IS their choice, and the fans will use it if they want. This topic refers to the overall franchise. But, yes, that website did exist, and it contained games like Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga, and Persona all as equal parts of the same series/franchise.

I was just trying to call things by their original names and stating my facts. I can deal with the saga being called whatever in other countries; I was just making my point, which is that I don't like what Atlus USA is doing.

Yeah, but Atlus never once said "because this game doesn't have the SMT name on it, it isn't considered a SMT game". That's completely a fan assumption. Atlus USA works very closely with Atlus Japan and they are part of the same company, despite being different branches. If Atlus Japan didn't like the games having the SMT title in them in America, then they wouldn't. They may be considered spin-offs and sub-series, but it doesn't make them any less important to the overall franchise, and this is an opinion shared by both Atlus Japan and Atlus USA and the overall fanbase at large.

The reason why I am so hostile to this argument is because I've had it a thousand times, and 9 times out of 10 the people whining about all the other games having the SMT name in American when they didn't in Japan are just trying to say "these games are inferior to my beloved classics because I don't like them as much so they don't count" and it drives me insane. You can not enjoy the newer games if you want, but I don't see the point in trying to make other people think they are any less "major"/"main" than the originals. Especially since, as I said before, the other games (Persona, Devil Summoner, Digital Devil Saga, etc) make up the majority of the franchise.

But this was the point of my entire argument; that pitting "The Main SMT Line" against "The Other Games" is silly and pointless, since they all belong to the greater franchise (call it "Megami tensei", "Megaten", or "Shin Megami Tensei", whatever you want, the franchise overall is still the franchise overall) and compliment each other well. Yes, Nocturne and Persona 4 compliment each other. They make up for things the other lacks and show two different ways that overall themes and elements can go to craft drastically different experiences and stories. You may not like that being what the franchise is now, but that is what it is.

However, I suppose this is simply where we meet a place where we can't compromise. I can't convince you and you can't convince me, so I'm willing to simply let the whole thing go for the sake of topic if you are. Because, at the very least, we're both fans of this franchise. I may like all of it and you may only like some of it, but we should both be able to agree that there are better things we could be talking about in this thread than bickering over names and semantics, no?

[Exfm]

Perhaps that's just your inner personal preference influencing you? ;)
heh heh heh

No, what Grant said was actually something a lot of older MegaTen fans found agreement on.

Edit: Nice pictures, keeper! I had the first one but never saw the other two before. Saaaaved~

Second one was the CD cover for the Persona Music Live 2009 -Velvetroom in Wel City Tokyo- DVD/Live version song CD which were released 6/23/2010
Third one was off the official Persona Music Live Tour website:
http://www.aniplex.co.jp/persona-live/index.html

He's the main character of the Persona: Trinity Soul anime.

Which was... alright. Didn't really live up to the games and wasn't what I was expecting, but I didn't hate it like some people did. Just wish they had gone a different route. Still worth watching once, I feel. It's totally non-canon, though, since they have some plot points that get heavily contradicted in the actual games themselves.

No, Trinity Soul actually tried to tie in more with P1/P2 in setting than with P3.
There was acutally some good points about the anime and somewhat decent battle scenes. What killed it was the slow paced story flow.

I am stuck at episode 15. It will be hard to keep watching it, since the only character from the game to appear was Igor (in a single 4 second scene).

Well, Akihiko does show up later; still playing a minor role, but he's there.
There's alos another character from P3 is heavily implied.
(You are never clearly given his name, but given his lines and behavior, it was easy to see who it was from P3)
Then, if you want to count, Junpei makes a camero in one episdoe for a brief second.

I dunno if the the psp version (which would be translated into in english) has been released yet.

I heard the Persona 3 was bad, but Persona 4 was better. Does it matter if I skip 3 or it is worthy a try?

P2IS PSP remake has yet to be released in JP.
(The original release date was 4/14, but due to the recent earthquake...)
P3 WAS bad, P4 WAS better.
As, P3 tried to cut out all ties from previous Persona games and restart anew. The concept wasn't bad, but it simply cannot be called a Persona. Thus the reason most of the actual Persona fans refuse to call it a Persona game till this day.
If you can play and think of the game itself not a Persona game, however, the game isn't all too bad. Still has some flaw overall as a RPG, but can be a very enjoyable game.
P4, on the other hand, improved upon P3. Fixed most of the flaw it had and tried to make it more "Persona" like. (for example, the way main characters awaken their Persona was a little bit more similar to P2 compare to the BS in P3)
If you really liked P2, personally can't say you'll enjoy P3 as a Persona, but P4 should be more passable for you.

So, which MegaTen games would you veterans recommend for a noob like me who wants to get into the series but hasn't a clue where to start? I've heard excellent things about the Persona games, but what of the others?

The so-called "excellent" things, really depends on who you hear it from.
If you want to play a REAL Persona game, play the first Persona, then play P2 IS/EP. However, this is a rocky road and not something most of people will always find enjoyment on. But in the end, depends on each person, it'll worth the time/effort.
If you just want a simple game to play and enjoy casually, P3/P4 is the way to go. Can you still call yourself a Persona player just by playing those games? Sure you can. Just different type of Persona fan.

well. for newbs I'd recommend Nocturne and persona 3 the former because even now I can play the hell out of it (although I wish we had Raidou as the guest character rather then dante)

Raidou is the guest character than Dante in the version that was bundled w/ Raidou VS Abbadon.
And Raidou > Dante in SMTIII cuz he has Almighty ._____.

I did feel that the Answer was an important epilogue to the ending, and enjoyed it quite a bit in terms of story, but in terms of gameplay mechanics, it was very poorly executed compared to the rest of the game. I never want to play that grind fest again. D: I'd almost recommend people just watch a youtube walkthrough of it even if they bought FES unless they loooove grinding levels.

Till this day, this one still recommend anyone to just watch the Youtube walkthrough if they just want to know the story. Personally do not think that grind fest was worth it.
Episdoe Aegis had great story closure (only saying "great" cuz it actually finished telling the story), just horrbile interface to display that compare to the rest of game.

On another note, still can't play the Female main due to all the pinkness...

What I mean is, if you intend to get into the SMT franchise, I don't think you should consider it a "okay, which are the BEST games out there because those are what I want" thing, as each game is different enough that comparing them just comes down to personal opinion. Therefore, in order to really experience what the franchise has to offer, you need to play several games. They all compliment each other and went for different things is all I am saying. If you read my earlier posts in this topic, obviously I don't mean to intend that you must never look at the differences between them.

The problem is that:
"okay, which are the BEST games out there because those are what I want" thing
is the thing that people care about. Hardcore fans have always been and always will be a minority. More "P3 fans" than you thought they would try the first Perosna when it was remake onto PSP and just went "WTF is this shit?" and threw it away. Because it's not something they can enjoy with a P3 mentalily, even though it's the REAL persona out of two games.

Yeah, I think you start at level... 25? And, well, yeah... but The Answer is not supposed to be a stand-alone game so you gotta give it SOME leeway. Even though there was more gameplay than story this time around, I still found the gameplay fun (I like battles and dungeons in Persona 3, so I never saw a problem with just doing that in The Answer) and the story we DID get was really good in my opinion. I thought it gave the already well fleshed out and developed characters even more depth and backstory during the first parts of the game, and I was personally very interested in where the story of The Answer wound up going. I found it to be a great addition to Persona 3 and on top of all the other various things in the PS2 versions (character models, cutscenes, etc) it is what really tops off FES as being the best Persona 3 package if you only intend to get one.

It is true that P3FES IS the best package if anyone would realyl play P3. But one thing: Episode Aegis itself IS a stand-alone game. This is due to the fact that, if you just want to see the ending of the P3, you can simply jump right into it without having to relay on any save from Episode Yourself. Also adding the fact that, Episode Aegis is not to be affected by any way you have played Episode Yourself, Episode Aegis itself is a stand-alone game. The major difference is that, if a new player can enjoy it without playing Episode Yourself first. This was also something some people who did play original P3 did.
The major problem alot of people who was eager to see the story is the imbalance in between Episode Yourself and Episode Aegis. Where you are given about 10-20% of the story and having to spend the rest of 80% of time in grinding.

You may very well be, unless you played it directly in Hard. I played both in Normal and I found P3 a lot easier. Even more, grinding in P3 was a lot more boring than in Nocturne to me.

The Answer was a nice challenge, but it was still not hard enough for my standards at least.



Persona 3 isn't exactly a Shin Megami Tensei game. It's a Megami Ibunroku, some kind of spin off. It's some sort of Atlus USA quirk to put the "SMT" label in everything and Persona 3 and 4 definitely aren't. But that's just a little point I'm making here.

What I'm talking about here is the general feeling of the games. Comparing Strange Journey, or Nocturne, or even the old SMT games to Persona 3 or 4 we can see they don't have that much in common beyond some gameplay elements. The themes are different, the atmosphere is much more important and the "You against the world" feeling is a lot more marked. Not to mention the Law vs. Chaos duality present in the main saga's games. No Loki raping teachers either. Oh wait, that was in the novel. Never mind.

My point is that, yes, they play similarly and with lots of variations while keeping the basis, but the themes and development are pretty different. That's why I said it could give a "wrong" idea, with the quotation marks.

P3 was made aimed @ a newer casual audience, so yes, the overall difficulty has been dumbed down alot compare to SMTIII.

Strickly speaking, Persona 3 was never a "Megami Ibunroku". There are only two "Megami Ibunroku" games to date: the first Persona and Devil Survior.

That because in Japan, games only get the label of "Shin Megami Tensei" if they are part of the "main/original" series. But SMT does not refer specifically to that, when we use it here, we refer to the overall franchise. Games like Persona 4 and Devil Summoner 2 may not be called "Shin Megami Tensei" in Japan, but they are still very much part of the Megaten franchise, and the developers themselves refer to them as such. And "Megami Ibunroku" does refer to it as a spin-off, but spin-offs are still part of the overall franchise/series. And especially considering series like Devil Summoner and Persona have more games and are more well known than the "main SMT series", it's silly to pretend they are any less "main" than what gets labeled SMT in Japan. That's why Atlus USA adds the SMT name to them.

No, Atlus USA simply adds the SMT name to sell and as the way to keep "their own" contiunity of the series in the US. And sadly, alot people who knew nothing about the series in the first place bought by what Atlus USA was doing. If you want to talk about in Japan, it is a FACT that fans (and even the company Atlus itself) prefer to the overall franchise "MegaTen", which is a short for Megami Tensei. Saying that everything Atlus USA released under SMT IS a Shin Megami Tensei is pretty much something ANY JP/old school fans who're familiar with the term can laugh about.

To this day, there are 6 titles EVER released under "Shin Megami Tensei" title:
Shin Megami Tensei
Shin Megami Tensei II
Shin Megami Tensei if...
Shin Megami Tensei III Nocturne (along w/ its release Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne Maniax/Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne Maniax Chronicle Edition)
Shin Megami Tensei NINE
Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey.

This is not to include the online ver "Shin Megami Tensei Online Imagine" since that's a bastard child of the series.
Out of these games, the only SMT games fans commonly agree on as the actual SMT game in the series are I/II/III. This is also why, no MegaTen fan would conside any of other game (doesn't matter what title it bears) beside the current in development IV a real so called "Shin Megami Tensei"

Thus, if you talk about how "games released by Atlus USA are SMT because Atlus slapped a SMT tag on there", you are simply gonna be laughed @.

Now ... till the rest of posts

You aren't just coming off as picky, but annoyingly cocky and arrogant too. And it's a completely fan-chosen thing to refer to the greater franchise as "Megami Tensei". Just because that is what the franchise is listed as on Wikipedia means nothing. Not a single game has been referred to that since the NES. They have all carried the "Shin" tagline. And YES, what Atlus USA says does count, because it's still the official company of Atlus deciding what to call the games. Even if DDS is called "Avatar Tuner: Digital Devil Saga" in Japan, they decided to call it "Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga" in America, setting up "Shin Megami Tensei" as the overall franchise's legitimate name.

Sorry, no offense, but you are really sounding like abutt-hurting Atlus USA fanboy here.
First off, there's no reason for name calling in the first place. The name of the series and everything related wasn't called "MegaTen" simply because it was listed as that on Wikipedia, it is something fans agree on and company advertise on. As a matter of fact, "Megami Tensei" itself as a series is famous enough in Japan that, if someone talks about a game "Goddess", alot people would have the reaction "MegaTen"? Even for those who might not have necessarily played any of the games, for a gamer, they'd W least heard or be familiar with the name itself one way or another.
Thus, if you use SMT for the franchise and talk about P3, they'd have no clue why you speak so that way.
Second, what Atlus USA calls the series isn't always the way it's supposed to. For example, Nocturne is the third game in the SMT series. But the first two were never released in the US. You honestly except them to release it w/ the title STMIII on the top and be able to sell it? Business is not as easy as you think. And being the small company Atlus USA is, it makes more sense to name it like that to sell 10,000 copies to someone who's never heard of the series instead selling 100 copies to the only hardcore fans out there.
It was since then Atlus USA decided to release the games in this way. It'll help keep the title, which also in the same time, help selling the games much easier.

Atlus USA isn't the first one to do it. A good example is Musou series. Casual gamer in the US doesn't know the fact that the number is always one ahead of the one it's supposed to be. They think they are playing Dynasty Warrior 7, where it's actually Shin Sangokumusou 6. Just because it's called DW7 doesn't mean anything. It doesn't change the fact that it's the 6th game in the series and numed 6 anywhere else. You go to Asia and tell the people who don't know about the release story that you are playing number 7, and they'll just laugh @ you, simple as that.

And yet if we were to consider that enough grounds to say they are set in the same world then all the Devil Summoner games have to be the same world as the main SMT series as well since they have a connection mentioned in the first Radiou game to it, which in turn means that Devil Survivor would have to take place in the world of the main SMT games as well since it has Devil Summoner Soul Hacker characters in it. But then, Persona also makes heavy reference to Devil Summoner games as well, meaning that they have to take place in the main SMT world as well. And in fact, SMT If has SMT I characters in it, meaning it has to take place in the same world as well. And of course, despite Catherine not being in any way related to SMT and Vincent not living in Japan, he has to be because he was there in P3P.

Yeah, I know I am being a sarcastic ass now, but I don't see how just because a character in Persona is a character from If make them share the same world. SMT does this ALL the time. Like all of the examples I listed above, it doesn't mean that the worlds are the same just because developers like to make nods to the other games in the franchise. I mean, for crying out loud they make references to Persona 2 being a video game in Persona 3. Sometimes you just need to take some of these references in stride, especially considering P2 and P3 take place in the same world.

First part quote, since this really indicate that you don't know anything you are talking about.

This one see your point. Yes, you CAN argue if one character is the exactly the same or not. But that is pointless. Everything MegaTen has exsist in a universe. Take the explaination in SMTIII in example, Lucifer explained very well different worlds and stuff. What you are arguing if they are the same character or not, can be seen both ways. If you refuse to believe them being different, no one is forcing you to. But it doesn't change the fact that they CAN be.

Persona 2 being a video game in P3? LOL. That, was a Atlus USA thing. In the original Japanese version of P3/P3F, the online game they were playing was Devil Buster Online, which is a reference to Megami Tensei II, which in actuality, was the FIRST game that was not based off the the novel instead of SMTI that most people commonly mistaken. Yes, your saying of seeing Megami Tensei and Megami Tensei II as one game if people say Persona 2 IS/EP is one game shows how much you really know about MegaTen both as games and as series.
Another note, the Comm that was in "Devil Buster Online" also wasn't Maya, she was named "Y-ko" which is homeage to the very first MegaTen female main character Yomiko.
The REAL P2 and the MOST reasonable reference in P3, is that on certain days, if you watch TV in the dorm first floor, you see news about certain characters.

Connected? As in, related in some way but not the exact same world/timeline? Now we can get into something I can agree to. Personally, I just look at all these sub-series and spin-offs as alternate realities. In many of them events get played out somewhat similarly, and even in ones where events play out drastically different, such as the Persona-verse, thanks to the references and easter eggs, you can still make a connection. But doesn't that in and of itself somewhat take away from your overall argument of not considering them part of the same series as the main SMT line?


That's fine. I've come off sounding worse than I intended at times myself, rereading some of my posts...

To skip ahead a bit, first, though...

Alright, when it comes to the name you give the overall franchise, I really don't care. You may feel that calling it "Shin Megami Tensei" is wrong and it should just be called "Megami Tensei", but it doesn't really matter. Atlus has called it both, and you may dislike Atlus USA's choice in using "Shin Megami Tensei", but it IS their choice, and the fans will use it if they want. This topic refers to the overall franchise. But, yes, that website did exist, and it contained games like Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga, and Persona all as equal parts of the same series/franchise.


Yeah, but Atlus never once said "because this game doesn't have the SMT name on it, it isn't considered a SMT game". That's completely a fan assumption. Atlus USA works very closely with Atlus Japan and they are part of the same company, despite being different branches. If Atlus Japan didn't like the games having the SMT title in them in America, then they wouldn't. They may be considered spin-offs and sub-series, but it doesn't make them any less important to the overall franchise, and this is an opinion shared by both Atlus Japan and Atlus USA and the overall fanbase at large.

The reason why I am so hostile to this argument is because I've had it a thousand times, and 9 times out of 10 the people whining about all the other games having the SMT name in American when they didn't in Japan are just trying to say "these games are inferior to my beloved classics because I don't like them as much so they don't count" and it drives me insane. You can not enjoy the newer games if you want, but I don't see the point in trying to make other people think they are any less "major"/"main" than the originals. Especially since, as I said before, the other games (Persona, Devil Summoner, Digital Devil Saga, etc) make up the majority of the franchise.

But this was the point of my entire argument; that pitting "The Main SMT Line" against "The Other Games" is silly and pointless, since they all belong to the greater franchise (call it "Megami tensei", "Megaten", or "Shin Megami Tensei", whatever you want, the franchise overall is still the franchise overall) and compliment each other well. Yes, Nocturne and Persona 4 compliment each other. They make up for things the other lacks and show two different ways that overall themes and elements can go to craft drastically different experiences and stories. You may not like that being what the franchise is now, but that is what it is.

However, I suppose this is simply where we meet a place where we can't compromise. I can't convince you and you can't convince me, so I'm willing to simply let the whole thing go for the sake of topic if you are. Because, at the very least, we're both fans of this franchise. I may like all of it and you may only like some of it, but we should both be able to agree that there are better things we could be talking about in this thread than bickering over names and semantics, no?

To be honest, if this one didn't read this part, this post would probably turn for the worst. It might be just this one's personal opinion, but this one is pretty sure Uberchoco didn't mean any games or series is ANY inferior. Think he was pointing out the difference in between the name so not to confuse whoever is reading on the topic. Where you found reasonable, another person might not. That's why he wanted to clear up on the topic we are talking about here being the overall series or just the SMT line. Generally since the fans who are knowledgeable in this field are very few (especially in English coomunity) far in between. And it'd only worsen the gap in between getting the actual knowledge of the series' origin when that's remain uncleared.

Truth is, it matters less in a small forum like this. And it eve make sense to put everything here since this'll be good way to introduce different titles in the series. That's something this one can agree with you on. But this applies to a small board like this. This one has been to forum where the fans are so different that, P3/P4 discussion actually had their own sub-board in compare to the SMT/P1/P2/other more MegaTen-like game; because how P3/P4 is AVG disgused in MegaTen cover. As harsh as it may sounds like, it is true. This is also something that some hardcore fans despise upon. not to the game itself, but how a game bears the title it didn't deserve.

But in the end, it's up to each person's own believe what is and if not. Like you said, we all have better things we could be talk about in this thread.

and btw, this one can tell you without a shasow of a doubt, those 9 people of 10 never really understand the whole series, regardless however they want to call it.

[Uberchoco]

But this was the point of my entire argument; that pitting "The Main SMT Line" against "The Other Games" is silly and pointless, since they all belong to the greater franchise (call it "Megami tensei", "Megaten", or "Shin Megami Tensei", whatever you want, the franchise overall is still the franchise overall) and compliment each other well. Yes, Nocturne and Persona 4 compliment each other. They make up for things the other lacks and show two different ways that overall themes and elements can go to craft drastically different experiences and stories. You may not like that being what the franchise is now, but that is what it is.

However, I suppose this is simply where we meet a place where we can't compromise. I can't convince you and you can't convince me, so I'm willing to simply let the whole thing go for the sake of topic if you are. Because, at the very least, we're both fans of this franchise. I may like all of it and you may only like some of it, but we should both be able to agree that there are better things we could be talking about in this thread than bickering over names and semantics, no?

I'm not pitying the spin-offs at all! I like the overall franchise, Persona 3 and DDS were great to me, to put examples. My main intention was stating the kinda visible hierarchy of the games and saying what the first games established, but by no means I said the spin offs were inferior. It's exactly what Exfm said in the post above.

And accepted. Let's leave it here and focus on what we have in common instead of on what we disagree with.

[Gilgamesh]

Yeah, I have no intention of replying to or even reading all of Exfm's post. Silly trollin elitist dude is silly, trollin, and elitist. I got to the phrase "REAL Persona game" and "P3 fans" and just shook my head. Considering that is currently their only post here too, well, lol.

[Exfm]

^
lol, too scared to read or you just can't understand the content? Take from an old school fan, read the post and you might learn a thing or two and make yourself look less stupid in the future ;p But again, like they always say, ignorance is a bliss <3

And think what you might, trolling or if not. Whatever you think won't change how much this one knows about the series. But judging someone by how many post they have on this board but not by the content of the post itself? That, is pretty lol.

[Grant]

I'd say a lot of people need to step back and take a breath.

[Gilgamesh]

^
lol, too scared to read or you just can't understand the content? Take from an old school fan, read the post and you might learn a thing or two and make yourself look less stupid in the future ;p But again, like they always say, ignorance is a bliss <3

And think what you might, trolling or if not. Whatever you think won't change how much this one knows about the series. But judging someone by how many post they have on this board but not by the content of the post itself? That, is pretty lol.

Oh hey there, troll-san. Try a bit harder, maybe somebody will fall for it eventually.

I'd say a lot of people need to step back and take a breath.

I wouldn't say A LOT of people. Uberchoco and I are shiny love fun time now, and I doubt anyone is going to fall for such an obvious troll as Exfm.

All that aside, though, I would like to see the topic return to the point for which it was made a bit~

So, the people who were interested in SMT but hadn't played one yet, or those that only played a few games and wanted to play more, have you decided which one you want to play first/next?

[Cruor]

From what I understand the MegaTen universe is connected. But most of it is with the thing Lucifer says that there are a shit ton of universes. Anyway, easy examples:

P2 has SMT: If... female Protag as the Assistant Detective.
In Soul Hackers (which takes place after Devil Summoner) you see Kuzunoha Kyouji in a different body (Sukeroku).
In P2 Kuzunoha Kyouji is sometimes possessing Detective Todoroki's body.
P1 and P2 were linked to P3 by the TV shows.
P3 was linked to P4 by Elizabeth going to save the MC and Yukiko showing up in P3P also not to mention they even go to P3's city.

And that was just the easy shit that I thought of off the top of my head. Was gonna put this but it's kinda hard and I'd rather believe it was some alternate world or something but...
Kuzunoha Kyouji I appears in the novel that comes with Raido vs the Soulless Army. Considering he's the FIRST Kuzunoha Kyouji (out of the four Kuzunoha clan titles) this means he's over a thousand years old. Now combine that with what I said before in that the Kuzunoha Kyouji from the original DS went around possessing peoples bodies after the game ended and yeah. There's also Victor who appears in all Devil Summoner titles and 'appears' in P2 as an owner of a restaurant.

So yeah, I'm under the impression most of the spinoffs are probably connected/in the same world. Just most of them not all though. But yeah, I'm not so sure about Kuzunoha Raido series being connected as Demons were known to exist (as I put before with Kuzunoha Kyouji I).

Considering that is currently their only post here too, well, lol.

He had about a thousand posts in the old forum (I'm actually surprised he found this place so quickly). Most of which was done in the Anime, Manga, and Games section.

But yeah, you're not the first to complain at his attitude. Off the top of my head him and Chaos don't really like each other.

[04satsujinki40]

I think Exfm is like the arai of the SMT stuff except that he may or may not translate stuff. Not that i know of.

-----------------------------
anyways, im gonna finish P3P then continue playing FES and move on to Persona.

On another note, still can't play the Female main due to all the pinkness...

pink is fine!

[Gilgamesh]

From what I understand the MegaTen universe is connected. But most of it is with the thing Lucifer says that there are a shit ton of universes. Anyway, easy examples:

P2 has SMT: If... female Protag as the Assistant Detective.
In Soul Hackers (which takes place after Devil Summoner) you see Kuzunoha Kyouji in a different body (Sukeroku).
In P2 Kuzunoha Kyouji is sometimes possessing Detective Todoroki's body.
P1 and P2 were linked to P3 by the TV shows.
P3 was linked to P4 by Elizabeth going to save the MC and Yukiko showing up in P3P also not to mention they even go to P3's city.

And that was just the easy shit that I thought of off the top of my head. Was gonna put this but it's kinda hard and I'd rather believe it was some alternate world or something but...
Kuzunoha Kyouji I appears in the novel that comes with Raido vs the Soulless Army. Considering he's the FIRST Kuzunoha Kyouji (out of the four Kuzunoha clan titles) this means he's over a thousand years old. Now combine that with what I said before in that the Kuzunoha Kyouji from the original DS went around possessing peoples bodies after the game ended and yeah. There's also Victor who appears in all Devil Summoner titles and 'appears' in P2 as an owner of a restaurant.

So yeah, I'm under the impression most of the spinoffs are probably connected/in the same world. Just most of them not all though. But yeah, I'm not so sure about Kuzunoha Raido series being connected as Demons were known to exist (as I put before with Kuzunoha Kyouji I).

I don't see any reason to believe them to take place in the same exact world/timeline, but I definitely think they are all parallel/alternate universes/timelines to each other, including the main series.

It's also worth mentioning that in the first Radiou game, one of the Time Tourist people from the future or whatever mentions the main character of SMT II and one of the things he does. Make of that what you will, of course.

He had about a thousand posts in the old forum (I'm actually surprised he found this place so quickly). Most of which was done in the Anime, Manga, and Games section.

But yeah, you're not the first to complain at his attitude. Off the top of my head him and Chaos don't really like each other.

Doesn't make him any less of a troll.

And when I mentioned his post count, I didn't mean to suggest he was an alt or anything. I just found it funny/sad that the first post he decides to make on the new forum is such a huge whiny troll-fest post. But, really, I'm far above such petty immaturity, so I couldn't care less. ohohoho~