昇華潜熱 (Latent Heat of Sublimation) || [FGO] [Lemon] [Hysterical Screed]

[I3uster]

@kyte: Can you make an argument based on his and not an assessment of his personality that's basically just your best attempt at making a personal attack that does not get you warned.

Because we're not dumb enough to not see an attempt.

[Kyte]

@kyte: Can you make an argument based on his and not an assessment of his personality that's basically just your best attempt at making a personal attack that does not get you warned.

Because we're not dumb enough to not see an attempt.

No, actually, I can't. I'll stop posting instead.

[Historia]

At this point the damage has been done. The situation is not redeemable. The only viable option is to burn it all down and start a new IP, but even this probably wouldn't work under the present circumstances of cultural production. You're asking me what I want in the way of new TM-branded content, but the truth is that it is the desire for more TM-branded content - more, more, more, always more - that has gotten us into this situation. What I want is nothing. If possible I would want less than nothing.

Oh, okay.

I know you're not asking me but personally I would like that sci-fi courtesans collaboration with Ikuhara. Having trouble finding Koto's translation of that particular interview but I think that was what it was.

The only Ikuhara I know is the dude who worked on Diebuster 2 and Sailor Moon. TM/Nasu wants to collab with that guy?

[SpoonyViking]

So you want an established author and artist to stop doing stuff that gets them paid?

I think his point (and please, feel free to correct me, Dullahan) is more that in the current cultural climate artistic creations inevitably become a brand - that is, the artistry in them inevitably becomes diluted in order to meet audience expectations, and he finds that result abhorrent enough he doesn't want to even see what is produced in the meantime.

On the one hand, he's got a point (just see how American superhero comic books have been mostly stuck in a rut for decades now). On the other, many of the greatest artists in a variety of fields wrote or performed not only for their art, but also for the money, so it's not as if commercialism intrinsecally devalues a work of art - except, ironically enough, if you adopt a collector's point of view.

A return to less Fate-oriented works (or not at all) would be nice

Don't they have a few of those out, like Mahoyo and Case Files?

[Rafflesiac]

Case Files is absolutely Fate and Mahoyo 2 is a meme

[Draconic]

So… after much deliberation here, I have reached the conclusion that literally everyone here is are wrong, because when one goes into a discussion with no intention of even considering alternative points of view, one is condemning the argument to complete failure. Aside from that though, there's a wide range of correctness here.

Dullahan, while your dedication to your opinion is admirable, you're going to have to at least concede that although opinions can be wrong, when you won't even acknowledge another side, you shouldn't criticize its validity further.

The problem here is that F/GO can be a subjective topic, and as such, your opinion, while it's entirely justified, cannot be an absolute, like you've dressed it up to be. It has no actual place in a discussion because—take it from a guy who's been at the opposite end of this statement—if you're right and everyone else is wrong, there must be a flaw in your reasoning. In your case, as I've said, it's not your opinion itself, it's just the fact that you don't even allow any other position to have any merit.

I'm sure I've misunderstood something, so… correct me if/where I'm wrong, I guess?

The only ones that I've seen act triggered are draconic and overmaster and I don't think either actually plays fgo.

Well… actually…
though I'll admit, I'm on the NA version and am thus a heathen in the eyes of many (and I only started last month and have no 5*s)

Also, no, wait! You have to call me a spaz in a post before the one where you rail on a guy. You're damaging your point despite the objective truth of your reference to my occasional pathetic-bullheadedness. This was supposed to sound urgent, but came across as angry. Marking this down as a communicative malfunction.

A return to less Fate-oriented works (or not at all) would be nice

I'm finally starting to reach that point! Hurray! Crap…

[Snow]

[Draconic]

What I want is nothing. If possible I would want less than nothing.

Technically speaking, and I mean this seriously, though cautiously; wouldn't the solution to this be to abandon everything TM related except for whatever stuff that you bought, and cut your ties to the TM communities you're in so that you'd stop receiving news about new content?

[Bloble]

if you're right and everyone else is wrong, there must be a flaw in your reasoning.

No. Sometimes if you're right and everyone else is wrong, it actually just means you're right and everyone else is wrong.

Dull is a simple guy. He respects well-reasoned arguments and he's gotten none thus far. Not from Royd, not from Kyte, and certainly not from the peanut gallery.

Your subjectivity argument, too, is flawed. There are objective conclusions that can be made regarding GO and he's taken about seventeen thousand words to make them, drawing from everything from knowledge of how the game works, how it was designed, who it was designed for, and the behavior of the people surrounding it. It's not an opinion; it's an argument.

[I3uster]

I don't know why you think people would get anything out of applying dialectics to video game taste because it's completely subjective like almost nothing else.

Also it is always a rather anti-intellectual stance to think that the truth between two disagreeing factions is automatically in the middle and the reason people disagree is just EMOTIONS. It more often than not betrays the intention of the person making that argument to profile oneself over actually investing themselves into the argument.

[Draconic]

I'm not going to argue the point that he's right. I know he is and has perfectly good reasoning. But other opinions, rational or otherwise shouldn't just be dismissed. Even if they are wrong, there's at least some value in them, if one cares to look. Looking at it from Royd's perspective for instance, Dullahan just seems curt and condescending. I mean, he obviously still has a point, but if he wants an irrational person to listen to him, he doesn't need facts as much as he needs to say it in a way that's more than just shooting Royd down. Basically, he just has to be nicer about it.

I3uster sniped me and now all of this is invalid…

[Snow]

The main problem of this situation is not the discussion, not even at its most heated, but people getting enraged that there is one in the first place about this. I notice that the circular arguments began around the same time as people coming in to express personal offense at what was written, which doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard out but coming into a discussion about a thing someone wrote with that attitude certainly affects your starting point and how people will perceive what you say.

[Draconic]

…
That's a very good point.

[mdatot]

This is an absolutely fascinating piece of writing, and it really cuts to the heart of so many things I've been unable to formulate my frustration with. I just wish I could recommend it to someone, but I really don't know who would both be willing to read it and not completely miss the point or take it as a personal attack. It really feels like the work of someone who has gazed long into the abyss.

I think his point (and please, feel free to correct me, Dullahan) is more that in the current cultural climate artistic creations inevitably become a brand - that is, the artistry in them inevitably becomes diluted in order to meet audience expectations, and he finds that result abhorrent enough he doesn't want to even see what is produced in the meantime.

I'm not Dullahan, but I think that's only kinda touching at the tip of the iceberg. I think it's fair to say that FGO is just the symptom, not the disease itself, but it reaches further than just diluting the artistic expression. The frustration here is, as I read it, with many different interconnected things: the obviously exploitative game mechanics and the writing that cheekily teases you about them (c.f. the section The dead gods in the fic), the commodified nature of what little artistic expression there is, as well as (I think) with the incredibly derivative patterns of expression in today's society - everything being replaced with its representation and so on (c.f. The comedians of Babylon). Then there's also the frustration with the playerbase, or perhaps more aptly put, the consumers. So many of them seem aware that there is no reasonable defense of the gacha, and that they are trapped in a Skinner box, but yet they continue to perform the rituals. They seem to think that as long as they are aware that it is "problematic", or "flawed", and joke about how they are trash and how awful everything is, everything's just fine. They have resigned completely, unable to imagine any other reality and resorting to taking the destructive drugs despite knowing fully well that nothing good can come from it. As the quote that opens the fic points out, it is easier to imagine the end of the world than not rolling the gacha.

I have to wonder though if fanfiction itself was not a milestone on the road to Gehenna. Also, I would really like to see someone write an impassioned defense of the gacha.

[Draconic]

Welcome to the boards, mdatot! I like you already!

[Dullahan]

This is an absolutely fascinating piece of writing, and it really cuts to the heart of so many things I've been unable to formulate my frustration with. I just wish I could recommend it to someone, but I really don't know who would both be willing to read it and not completely miss the point or take it as a personal attack. It really feels like the work of someone who has gazed long into the abyss.


I'm not Dullahan, but I think that's only kinda touching at the tip of the iceberg. I think it's fair to say that FGO is just the symptom, not the disease itself, but it reaches further than just diluting the artistic expression. The frustration here is, as I read it, with many different interconnected things: the obviously exploitative game mechanics and the writing that cheekily teases you about them (c.f. the section The dead gods in the fic), the commodified nature of what little artistic expression there is, as well as (I think) with the incredibly derivative patterns of expression in today's society - everything being replaced with its representation and so on (c.f. The comedians of Babylon). Then there's also the frustration with the playerbase, or perhaps more aptly put, the consumers. So many of them seem aware that there is no reasonable defense of the gacha, and that they are trapped in a Skinner box, but yet they continue to perform the rituals. They seem to think that as long as they are aware that it is "problematic", or "flawed", and joke about how they are trash and how awful everything is, everything's just fine. They have resigned completely, unable to imagine any other reality and resorting to taking the destructive drugs despite knowing fully well that nothing good can come from it. As the quote that opens the fic points out, it is easier to imagine the end of the world than not rolling the gacha.

I have to wonder though if fanfiction itself was not a milestone on the road to Gehenna. Also, I would really like to see someone write an impassioned defense of the gacha.

I love you. Please marry me.

[mdatot]

Welcome to the boards, mdatot! I like you already!

Aww, thanks!

[I3uster]

dullahan youre banned for making flattering sockpuppets for yourself

[Dullahan]

can we ban every person who's posted in this thread without having read the fic

[mdatot]

I love you. Please marry me.

I'd marry your writing, if I could.

- - - Updated - - -

dullahan youre banned for making flattering sockpuppets for yourself

At least I think I can say I've made a suitably dramatic entrance.