Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[castor212]

if its the sword thats doing most of the heavy lifting, is it his physical feat exceeding normal human?

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Everything You said is relevant to the topic. Projection or mental damage is part of tracing the weapon and the skills bundled with it. What matters here is that Shirou was not granted stats 100% equivalent to the user of the weapon he traced. He was basically dragged along for the ride by the weapon he traced just like Hector's corpse being dragged by Achilles's chariot. And if he try to trace the spear that has the history of moving at comet speed he'll be that Hector's corpse.

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Which will turn him into Hector's corpse 2.0.

would he even be able to hold on to it to begin with

i feel bad for his fingers already

[You]

The topic was physical fighting by skill tracing not projection or mental damage from using the arm. And that last part was Shirou recovering from being hit by one of Gil's weapons, not any backlash from Shirou doing something.

It's the same thing.
When Shirou is using the skill of something, he has to project the weapon. If he's projecting the weapon + the skills he gets destroyed.
But if you want an isolated example, they exist too

"I'm tossed away.
As soon as my consciousness returns, the sword must have left everything in my hands.
I am easily thrown away by the attacks I was easily blocking until now.

"Haah"
The senses in my arms are already gone. My wrist is about to rip off as I can see the red meat.

"Kuh…!"
My legs won't move. All my muscles must have stopped working.
I can't stand up.
I made the sword that surpasses Berserker.
But that's all.
As I am only a maker, I cannot handle the sword!"

I argued that the spear remembers moving at speeds when Achilles was running so stat tracing could possibly do something with that and specifically talked about it not applying to attacking where the memories would be of Achilles's attacking speed.

"something with that" is incredibly vague.
It's very unlikely since Achille's superspeed is stated to be about the power of his legs. Assuming for a second that speed could be reproduced, the result would be like Mizu said.

Are you saying that Shirou was doing his own thing? In that case how was he able to react against Gil when he specifically says that he can't do that and needs Caliburn to do it for him.

I instantly block the attack swung at me!
"! You!"
I sway my body to the side to avoid the attack.
"!!"
But I'm not fast enough.
If the first attack was a sudden gust, the next barrage of attacks is a raging wind.
"Hakuh, guh…!"
Parrying is all I can do.
No, I wouldn't even have been able to block the first attack by myself.

I'm saying he tries to dodge and he fails/is too slow. And the sword then blocks the blow because Shirou is too slow.
That seems to be what the text is trying to say.
The first attack is a swing that he blocks.
Then he tries to dodge and fails because he's Shirou. The sword then blocks the blow making up for him.

[Lily Emilio]

You still haven't answered my question.

That's a rhetorical question. I don't have to answer.

[Asunder]

It's the same thing.
When Shirou is using the skill of something, he has to project the weapon. If he's projecting the weapon + the skills he gets destroyed.

Damage from projection is just inexperience while physical strain is less easy to deal with.

But if you want an isolated example, they exist too



"something with that" is incredibly vague.
It's very unlikely since Achille's superspeed is stated to be about the power of his legs. Assuming for a second that speed could be reproduced, the result would be like Mizu said.

Then you'd think that Shirou would have died the bunch of other times he reproduced stats tens of times greater than his. Why is Achilles a death sentence but not Hercules or King Arthur? And to get back to the first question, why couldn't EMIYA handle it?

I'm saying he tries to dodge and he fails/is too slow. And the sword then blocks the blow because Shirou is too slow.
That seems to be what the text is trying to say.
The first attack is a swing that he blocks.
Then he tries to dodge and fails because he's Shirou. The sword then blocks the blow making up for him.

But if Shirou can't react to Gil's attacks then how could he know to try to dodge them? Shirou says that the sword is what reacts right after he goes and reacts.

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That's a rhetorical question. I don't have to answer.

I need to know that you understand the most basic aspect of the argument.

[castor212]

not like the spear

beacuse the spear is actually subjectively stationary

as in, in terms of arms movement the spear isnt being moved
in terms of leg movement, it doesnt reaally corelate to the spear

ok, actually, never mind, i dont think it can even do this
because after rereading all these quotes, im reminded that each time shirou do a projection sword swing, its a combination of both the sword memory swing and him moving his arms, and it is doubtful if he can just make the swords moves on its own and memory swing

achilles moving his legs step by step as he moves comet speed really doesnt have anything to do with the spear, stat tracing or no

[Lily Emilio]

I need to know that you understand the most basic aspect of the argument.

I suggest you stop this condescending attitude. Not appreciating it, at all.

[Asunder]

ok, actually, never mind, i dont think it can even do this
because after rereading all these quotes, im reminded that each time shirou do a projection sword swing, its a combination of both the sword memory swing and him moving his arms, and it is doubtful if he can just make the swords moves on its own and memory swing

achilles moving his legs step by step as he moves comet speed really doesnt have anything to do with the spear, stat tracing or no

The info that Shirou gets from swords is pretty comprehensive including things like Crane Wings from K&B and "the maker's thought, expectation, moral, faith and the origin itself."

When you've got all of that, I can't help but think that 'how fast is the guy that uses me' must be somewhere in the weapon.

[castor212]

But none of those things are correlated to leg strength?

Like, maybe a sword has a memory of how a hand held it, swung it and how powerful the swing was.

But how is a spear to remember the legs doing perpendicular movement that doesnt even touch the spear.

[Asunder]

I suggest you stop this condescending attitude. Not appreciating it, at all.

Then argue honestly. I don't appreciate being accused of 'wank' and out of context' because I dared to say that EMIYA could do something that Shirou did on his first tracing.

[Lily Emilio]

ok, actually, never mind, i dont think it can even do this
because after rereading all these quotes, im reminded that each time shirou do a projection sword swing, its a combination of both the sword memory swing and him moving his arms, and it is doubtful if he can just make the swords moves on its own and memory swing

achilles moving his legs step by step as he moves comet speed really doesnt have anything to do with the spear, stat tracing or no

In that case all Shirou has to do is trace Achilles's sandals.

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Then argue honestly. I don't appreciate being accused of 'wank' and out of context' because I dared to say that EMIYA could do something that Shirou did on his first tracing.

I, castor and You have been providing evidences that so far you still yet to come up with any proper counterarguments. Wtf is argue honestly even mean???

[castor212]

In that case all Shirou has to do is trace Achilles's sandals.

Are those even SWORDS swords

[Asunder]

None of those things are correlated to leg strength.

Neither should an all purpose monster slaying technique be correlated to when the user that Shirou's copying didn't even use it.

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In that case all Shirou has to do is trace Achilles's sandals.

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I, castor and You have been providing evidences that so far you still yet to come up with any proper counterarguments. Wtf is argue honestly even mean???

Arguing honestly means not acting as if I wasn't the first one to start posting cites from the VN or I haven't been replying to every point raised since this thing started.

[Lily Emilio]

Neither should an all purpose monster slaying technique be correlated to when the user that Shirou's copying didn't even use it.

He does in FGO. And since the throne of heroes is independent from time, it obviously recorded Herc using Nine Lives with the axe sword.

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Arguing honestly means not acting as if I wasn't the first one to start posting cites from the VN or I haven't been replying to every point raised since this thing started.

What you wanted me to answer with your rhetorical question is a tactic to lure me into your argument trap. You want me to answer it? Here is my answer: No.

[castor212]

Herc still uses that axesword with his hand. Its still believaeble. Sure, may be he never used a temple foundation stone to do simultaneous slashes, but he still swung around that big slab of stone with a hand that knows how to do simulraneous slashes.

But copying Achilles running form from the spear that he doesnt do much with his leg with while running is like, like me projecting a chinese dagger belonging to kungfu master and by projecting that dagger i now know kungfu complicated movements

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I mean, its just hard to believe.

[Asunder]

He does in FGO. And since the throne of heroes is independent from time, it obviously recorded Herc using Nine Lives with the axe sword.

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What you wanted me to answer with your rhetorical question is a tactic to lure me into your argument trap. You want me to answer it? Here is my answer: No.

Thank you for admitting that you haven't read the VN.

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Herc still uses that axesword with his hand. Its still believaeble.

But copying Achilles running form from the spear that he doesnt do much with his leg with while running is like, like me projecting a chinese dagger belonging to kungfu master and by projecting that dagger i now know kungfu complicated movements

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I mean, its just hard to believe.

Did the kung fu master do kung fu with the knife?

[castor212]

For argument sake. Lets make it no, its a decorative knife swung around on his hip as he do complicated movements with his limbs.

[Lily Emilio]

Thank you for admitting that you haven't read the VN.

Thank you for completely missing the point while acting like a jerk because you failed to come up with a proper argument.

[Asunder]

But yeah I guess the cites from FSN don't really go into detail about how much technique Shirou gets when he does these things. Does he have proper swinging posture when using caliburn?

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Thank you for completely missing the point while acting like a jerk because you failed to come up with a proper argument.

I argued honestly with You and Caster because they showed they were more or less willing to do the same. I have no such obligation to you because you haven't posted anything worthwhile.

[castor212]

I guess what im trying to say is

Copying fencing technique used by Kristin Vines with his hand be read from the fencing sword she used for a while in practicing: believable

Copying Usain Bolt's running form from this pocket knife he put in his pocket as it got swung around by the running momentum: ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Lily Emilio]

I argued honestly with You and Caster because they showed they were more or less willing to do the same. I have no such obligation to you because you haven't posted anything worthwhile.

More like you intentionally ignore my posts that BOTH Castor and You agreed with and even pointed you to those for the argument because you couldn't come up with any counter arguments. In fact, Castor basically answered your dumb question for me here:

if its the sword thats doing most of the heavy lifting, is it his physical feat exceeding normal human?

Which, of course you also couldn't answer (or intentionally ignored). So I had to spell it out for you "No". Those are the feats of the weapons, not himself. He was breaking as he's doing those and try to keep up, which any other human would be like under the same circumstances.

Basically you couldn't come up with anything so you try to question my understanding of the argument or read the VN to try and dismiss my credibility in this. Pretty standard rhetorical tactic, almost worked but nope.