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Thread: Create-a-Servant

  1. #2241
    My god, SO MUCH CONTENT @___@

    I'm starting with Verg's on the backlog so I don't get swamped.

    @Verg: I support this Rider v. Rider fight and demand it become so. I'm a bit iffy on announcing that she brings her crew with her though- even if it does explain how she's piloting the ships. It sounds like a serious prana hog, at or approaching the level of Ionion Hetairoi, though it is kind of a nice touch that it's limited in scope to the territory she's capable of creating.

    @Seika: As I have already given this profile due consideration I respond by announcing that your new acronym has resulted in me wondering if Diomedes was a rejected plan by the Japanese government to deal with the problem of Wild Ones.

    @Spinach: Superlative descriptions on Bayard which would probably be Nasu-contradicted (as regards Sleipnir) aside, this is definitely a Servant who I could imagine showing up in a canonical spin-off of some sort. I like that as a nice touch, he's really most impressive on defense, moreso than he is a straight-up shit-wrecker. The castle walls being reimagined as armor that can transform itself back into its original state to block more powerful blasts is a nice touch, as is your literal interpretation of "Anti-Castle/Fortress". Jolly good.

    @Gunbazca: The only thing I'm really iffy on is Revelation, which seems more like it's a prophetic skill than something you give to an exceptional navigator alone. It's supposed to represent flashes of intuition which reveal truths, not straight-up knowledge, and since the skill provides bonuses to more areas than the single field of Navigation it's probably not something the Servant would possess. Otherwise, though? Nice touch on his omnomnom power, it's very twisted and dark but ties in nicely in his secondary/major ability, which is presumably recruiting a hundred random people for his crew so as to power up his giant flying pirate ship. Which no doubt turns into a giant robot with the application of a command seal.

    (...and everyone who doesn't know Gokaiger is looking at me and wondering what the hell I'm talking about)

    @Lyco: Seconding the earlier comments about awesome Servant + working in the storm quote, it seems too iconic to just leave out of the character's repertoire.

    @Daneel: ...I'm going to use my "get out of profile free" card.

    ...As an odd question, with the recent pirate boom does anyone here know a nice piece of source material for the Legend of the Flying Dutchman? I have a working phantasm and idea for the personality of Vanderdecken as a Rider (which is NOT straight-up ship summon- or is but, well, roundabout), but I'm looking for more specific common details in the story to see if I can't come up with Personal Skills/more definite parameters.
    "AND THAT MEANT THE ROCK, THE CRAPPY AWFUL ROCK HERE WAS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, THE CONTINUA, THE WHOLE REALITY!"

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  2. #2242
    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    I'm attempting to work in the storm factoid without copy-pasta'ing Iskander's mount and electric affinity...
    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
    Yes, excellent. Go, Lyco, my proxy.
    F/GO SUPPORT

  3. #2243
    のワの Nonowa~ Gunbazca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarletWeather View Post
    @Gunbazca: The only thing I'm really iffy on is Revelation, which seems more like it's a prophetic skill than something you give to an exceptional navigator alone. It's supposed to represent flashes of intuition which reveal truths, not straight-up knowledge, and since the skill provides bonuses to more areas than the single field of Navigation it's probably not something the Servant would possess. Otherwise, though? Nice touch on his omnomnom power, it's very twisted and dark but ties in nicely in his secondary/major ability, which is presumably recruiting a hundred random people for his crew so as to power up his giant flying pirate ship. Which no doubt turns into a giant robot with the application of a command seal.

    (...and everyone who doesn't know Gokaiger is looking at me and wondering what the hell I'm talking about)
    I see... I think it will be better if I swap out Revelation with something else. Probably more stealth-friendly too since Nau can be summoned as an Assassin. However, Blague Noire would make him an Assassin with a flyable giant ghost ship at his disposal, a bit out of the class flavor but still mostly fits his own flavor (guy literally sneaked up on and gangraped Maracaibo to pieces). I think Rule of Gold is a good swap (nicked 260,000 gp worth of treasure from the Spaniards... and that's before Maracaibo i think), but he should have some corollary that he loses his treasure as fast as he gets it due to dividing or something. Oh, and i'm trying to keep Blague Noire a bit low-key so while it flies, it's much better on land (and a total nightmare on water). And no, no pirate sentai giant Macross although it does sound quite awesome.

    Know what's more crazy? Picture Raiga (or other yakuza sort, who already has a lot of loyal subordinate) getting Mr. Nau as servant. Given enough prana (or sacrificial hearts), Nau could probably do all sort sorts of crazy things like kite Ionioi Hetaibroi's army to death with cannons.

    Now I'm considering either Servant-ize one of my countrymen (out of nationalism lol) or Henry Morgan. Or probably Jean Lafitte, guy has some crazy awesome credential on him.
    Last edited by Gunbazca; June 11th, 2012 at 01:36 PM.

  4. #2244
    Click the moon for extra scenes Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    @Verg: I support this Rider v. Rider fight and demand it become so. I'm a bit iffy on announcing that she brings her crew with her though- even if it does explain how she's piloting the ships. It sounds like a serious prana hog, at or approaching the level of Ionion Hetairoi, though it is kind of a nice touch that it's limited in scope to the territory she's capable of creating.
    Well, the way I figure, it's both prana-hog and limited to water. Plus, to be honest, given that she was the only one who could command an armada that vast alone (and did it through ridiculously strict laws on the ships), I feel like it was enough reason to have her call the whole deal, all the pirates and all the ships.

  5. #2245
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
    Well, the way I figure, it's both prana-hog and limited to water. Plus, to be honest, given that she was the only one who could command an armada that vast alone (and did it through ridiculously strict laws on the ships), I feel like it was enough reason to have her call the whole deal, all the pirates and all the ships.
    Her Military Tactics skill was definitely too high, though.
    <NEW FIC!> Revolution #9: Somewhere out there, there's a universe in which your mistakes and failures never happened, and all you wished for is true. How hard would you fight to make that real?

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  6. #2246
    Click the moon for extra scenes Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    Err, no, I find it quite fitting. Outwitting all the superpower navies of the world at time takes a biiiiit of a strategic mind. I mean, she was commanding and army of 80 000 or more men. What did Iskander have when he crossed the Hellespont? 45 000?
    Last edited by Verg Avesta; June 11th, 2012 at 12:52 PM.

  7. #2247
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    But it was 45000 elite Heroic Spirits, not 80000 peons and rag-tag mongrels.

  8. #2248
    Click the moon for extra scenes Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    Hey, this is a fictional world. And these are pirates in a fictional world. - 3-

    Plus, being Heroic Spirit does not matter, as this concerns the aspect of actual large-scope warfare and how developed her tactics were in that department.

  9. #2249
    Κυρία Ἐλέησον Seika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
    Err, no, I find it quite fitting. Outwitting all the superpower navies of the world at time takes a biiiiit of a strategic mind. I mean, she was commanding and army of 80 000 or more men. What did Iskander have when he crossed the Hellespont? 45 000?
    Contemporary Historian Infantry Cavalry
    Callisthenes 40,000 4,500
    Ptolemy 30,000 5,000
    Aristobulus 30,000 4,000
    Anaximenes 43,000 5,500

    But it's generally a hellish cluster trying to work it out: authors miss or count in reinforcements, mercenaries, those already in an area, those who had been sent on ahead, personal guards ...
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  10. #2250
    のワの Nonowa~ Gunbazca's Avatar
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    A question to ponder really:

    Can a Holy Grail War happen, in which all of the Heroic Spirits are PIRATES? Riders, Berserkers, and Sabers are obvious, Archers and Assassins can be pretty obvious too, Lancers can still work (Captain Ahab anyone?), the superstitious lot can slot in as Casters.

    Pirate Grail Wars ho.

  11. #2251
    The Dragon of Dojima MssrNeko's Avatar
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    Behold my new work and...um, enjoy?

    ----------------

    Class: Assassin
    True Name: Bruce Wayne
    Alignment: Lawful Good


    I am vengeance. I am the night. I am Batman!
    Statistics
    Strength: C+
    Endurance: C
    Agility: B+
    Magic: D
    Luck: C
    Noble Phantasm: B+

    Class Skills
    Presence Concealment
    Rank: A
    The ability to conceal the Servant’s presence, granted usually to the Assassin class.
    · Years of training and experience granted Bruce mastery over the art of stealth. Undeniably peerless, tracking or sensing him is near-impossible. At this level, Bruce’s presence is only detectable by high-ranking tracking spells. Surprise attacks are doubly effective.

    Personal Skills
    Disengage
    Rank: B
    The ability to break away from battle.
    · When faced with overwhelming odds, Bruce would stick to his strengths and retreat to a safer location to plan his next move. At this level, Bruce can retreat from battle with little chance of failing. Battle parameters and status will be reset to the first turn.

    Expert of Many Specializations
    Rank: A
    Proper usage of a large variety of expert skills.
    · Traveling the world, Bruce learned many different skills and talents that he would eventually use in his crusade against crime. At this level, Bruce has access to thirty-two different skills ranging from Riding, Criminology, Martial Arts, and so on. His ability to utilize them is equivalent to about B rank.

    Eye of the Mind (True)
    Rank: B
    Calm analysis of battle situation and conclusion of action during a tough spot through “theory of battle”.
    · One of Bruce’s major assets is ability to calmly plan around almost any situation he finds himself in. At this level, Bruce can assess and analyze his status in battle and exploit any chance, no matter how minute, for victory.

    Projectile Creation
    Rank: C
    The ability to create projectiles and use them. independently of a Noble Phantasm.
    · Bruce utilizes unique boomerang-type projectiles called Batarangs. At this level, Bruce can create several types of Batarangs: standard, remote-control, explosive, and distraction. However their power is only D rank.

    Noble Phantasm(s)
    Dark Knight The One They Fear
    Rank: B+
    Type: Anti-Unit
    A Bounded Field that represents Bruce's influence over Gotham City. Inside, Bruce can sense the whereabouts of enemies and their doings. Hostiles who wander within its borders will be afflicted with intense feelings of caution and apprehension. A high level of mental interference that will slowly deteriorate enemy parameters. The effects can be warded by high rank mental protection. Servants of the Evil alignment inside the Bounded Field will be affected twice as much.

    Details
    (I think everyone knows how Batman became who he is )

    ----------------

    Questions, comments, outraged objections?

    Spoiler:

  12. #2252
    I would have expected a NP from the time he killed the GOD OF EVIL Darkseid.

    But yeah, cool assassin.

  13. #2253
    Time to burn some dread Daneel Rush's Avatar
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    It has come to my attention that I have not posted a single genderbent Servant. Enmebaragesi does not count: for all we know, a person called Enmebaragesi might have never existed. Anyway, to correct this most unforgivable of mistakes, here goes a double whammy.

    Spoiler:

    I originally thought of using Yoshitsune, but that guy's too obvious a genderbend; the Gikeiki speaks at length of his girly looks. Heck, he was dressed as a woman when Benkei met him. Also, for some reason I just prefer the idea of Yoshitsune as a trap rather than as a woman. So anyway, if nobody else does it, I might tackle Yoshitsune later. Instead, someone from a bit earlier in history.

    *******

    MINAMOTO NO YORIMITSU (源 頼光)
    Servant: Saber (Archer)

    Gender: Female
    Height: 170 cm
    Weight: 52 kg
    Three Sizes: 76/53/80

    Alignment: Chaotic Good


    Strength B
    Endurance B
    Agility A
    Magic C
    Luck A
    Noble Phantasm A+ (as Saber) / B+ (as Archer)


    Class Skills:
    * Magic Resistance: Grants protection against magical effects.
    B – Cancel spells with a chant below three verses. Even if targeted by High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals, it is difficult for him to be affected. Despite being a swordsman from the Age of Man, Yorimitsu confronted many practitioners of the magical arts in her life.
    * Independent Action: The ability to remain independent even when rejecting the prana supply from the Master. At the higher ranks it is also possible to remain for extended periods of time in this world without an established contract (Archer-class only).
    C – Capable of remaining in this world for one day without an established contract.
    * Riding: Expertise to ride animals and vehicles (Saber-class only).
    B – Most vehicles can be handled with above-average skill. However, he cannot ride the likes of Phantasmal Races such as Demonic Beast and Holy Beast-rank creatures.

    Personal Skills:
    * Bravery: The ability to negate mental interference such as pressure, confusion and fascination.
    B+ – Bonus effect of rank-up to Endurance when under the effect of a Command Spell.
    * Charisma: The natural talent to command an army. Increases the ability of allies during group battles. A rare talent.
    C – Suitable for the commander of a feudal lord’s army. Morale of allies can only be swayed by supernatural effects of rank B or higher.
    * Eye of the Mind (False): An innate talent to sense and avoid danger based on intuition, that can also be called the Sixth Sense or prescience, gained through many ordeals and adventures. As a natural talent to avoid danger, it greatly differs from Eye of the Mind (True), which is danger avoidance that originates from “predictions augmented by experience”.
    C+ – Represents a strong, unconscious awareness of her immediate surroundings which allows identification of the subtle cues preceding a threatening event. The intuitive ability is so deeply engraved in her mind that it works even while asleep or unconscious.


    Noble Phantasms:

    * Doujigiri – Pacifier of Mount Ooe (切, Douji-Cutter)
    Type: Anti-Army
    Rank: A+
    Range: 2-10
    Maximum number of targets: 10 people

    One of the so-called “Five Great Swords” of Japan (Tenka Goken, 天下五剣), which can still be seen in the Tokyo National Museum to this day. Formally known as Doujigiri Yasutsuna, as per the name of its creator. The nagasa length is 80 cm, with sori 2.7 cm long.

    It received the title “Doujigiri” for being the blade that ended the life of the great oni, Shutendouji. However, its legend extends far beyond Yorimitsu’s lifetime, and thus the Noble Phantasm she currently wields is considerably more powerful than the one she used against the oni of Mount Ooe. Records from the seventeenth century claim that the blade is possessed by a kitsune which supposedly sealed the “kan no mushi” that afflicted the young Matsudaira Mitsunaga, future lord of Takada. It is also said that foxes tend to gather in the vicinity of the sword, and that the howls of a white fox warned a member of the Honami house of the fire that threatened to destroy the workshop where Doujigiri was being polished.

    The spirit in the blade still wards its owner. The wielder of Doujigiri is immune to effects that would reduce his Endurance or Agility parameters. Furthermore, the howls of a fox can be heard as a warning of impending danger, although the cries provide no information on the nature and imminence of the encroaching threat. But the main power of the blade is course, its application as a slayer of large magical creatures. The blade itself possesses the “anti-demon” property, which includes both demons born of the wishes of mankind and Fiendish Kind spontaneously born from the Planet. The invocation of the weapon’s name allows Yorimitsu to unleash a mighty and wide slash of surging prana, its color crimson like blood. The foundation of the attack is “increased effectiveness against enemies already weakened”. The attack power of the bloody wave equals Yorimitsu’s Strength parameter. However, if a target is affected by a special hampering condition—poison, disease, paralysis, a crippling wound to one of his limbs, the effects of a hallucinogenic drug, a curse or even drunkenness—, the value is multiplied by three, or by four with a successful Luck check.


    * Kumokiri-maru – Karma Sword of Exorcism (蜘蛛切丸, Spider Cutter)
    Type: Anti-Unit
    Rank: D+
    Range: 1-3
    Maximum number of targets: 1 person

    Originally known as Makuragami; then as Hizamaru. The sister sword of Watanabe no Tsuna’s Onikiri—although crafted by different smiths, they were fabricated from the same raw material. At one time Yorimitsu, in a fit of fever delirium, slashed the sword at a giant shadow which he thought to have seen while awake in the night. He and his Shitennou followed the trail of blood to a hole in the ground where a giant earth spider was found dead. Yorimitsu thus renamed the Hizamaru Kumokiri-maru”.

    The sword inflicts critical damage to animal spirits of all kinds. Furthermore, a successful strike with the sword temporarily seals any and all natural or magical poison resistance or immunity capabilities in the struck target. This naturally means that an entity with natural reserves of poison may suddenly find itself afflicted by its own weapon.


    * Happi Benzaiten – Eight Arms of the Stalwart (八臂弁財天, Eight Arms Benzaiten)
    Type: Anti-Army
    Rank: B(+)
    Range: 3-80
    Maximum number of targets: 7 people

    The Noble Phantasm Yorimitsu receives if summoned as Servant Archer; it is the bow he received from the hands of the goddess of good fortune as proof of her favor and support of her martial prowess. It is name after the original form of the goddess introduced to Japan in the eighth century: a weapon-wielding warrior deity with eight arms, defender of Buddishm and protector of the state.

    An invocation is unnecessary—prana accumulation begins the moment the string is pulled. The attack is aimed with the mind, not with the body. Releasing the string unleashes seven arrows of golden prana towards targets already defined before firing—the arrow’s trajectory cannot be modified when they are already in flight. Base damage is doubled if the bow is used within Japanese territory.

    Since continuously shooting seven potent arrows quickly drains Yorimitsu’s prana, she may also fire single shots that, in spite of acting in all ways identically to the seven-arrows version, do not count as Noble Phantasm activations and cost considerably less prana. The damage value of these shots is determined by Yorimitsu’s Strength parameter only, not taking into account the bow’s rank as a Noble Phantasm.


    Background
    One of Japan’s greatest heroes, to whom many feats have been attributed in history and legend. She lived between the years 948 and 1021 AD. Working as a servant of the Fujiwara clan, she cleansed the country of bandits and vile supernatural creatures. She is popularly known as Raikou—an alternate reading of her name. Said to be favored by the goddess Benzai-ten, her greatest fortune was the company of her loyal companions, the Shitennou (四天王, Four Heavenly Kings)—four warriors of skill almost as great as her own, who accompanied her in all her adventures.

    It is hard to make a list of all the amazing feats attributed to Yorimitsu. Aside from the well known tale of the massacre at Mount Ooe, in which Yorimitsu and her companions used subterfuge to slay the great oni Shutendouji, she is also known for defeating the evil magus Hakamadare Yasumasa and his monstrous snake; ridding the country of the notorious bandit Kidoumaru and killing the spider youkai that tried to assassinate her while in the guise of a servant boy.

    Yoritmitsu is a woman who succeeded at passing for a man her entire life. However, Yorimitsu’s “feminine looks” are mentioned in a few records, which led to modern adaptations depicting her as her proper gender, albeit unknowingly. She was rambunctious; manly, even. She loved to drink and to get drunk; in other circumstances, she and Shutendouji might have become good friends. Making friends was something she was very good at; her helpful and open-minded attitude made it quite easy. She would sometimes dress in woman’s clothes to pull pranks on handsome men. She is criticized in some narrations for being too eager to get into fights—‘hot-blooded’ would be the modern term. Her lack of prudence is mentioned in a few theatrical plays starring her figure.

    However, the fact that she managed to protect her secret until the very end speaks of her cunning and self-awareness. She did her job responsibly, both as a general and later as a regent. Only three of her Four Heavenly Kings and the woman she eventually took as his wife were aware of the secret. She dearly loved her four attendants and would have undoubtedly died for any of them, but the only one she engaged in intercourse with was Usui no Sadamitsu, who also happened to be a woman in disguise. She never had children of her own.

    Keyword
    Additional Equipment: In addition to her Noble Phantasms, Minamoto no Yorimitsu carries the magical tools she used to defeat Shutendouji: the magic gourd, Jinbenkidoushu (神便鬼毒酒), that never runs of liquor, and a magic helmet that considerably increases Armor Class against attacks aimed to her head.


    Spoiler:

    USUI NO SADAMITSU (碓井貞光)
    Class: Lancer

    Gender: Female
    Height: 169 cm
    Weight: 45 kg
    Three Sizes: 75/61/83

    Alignment: Chaotic Good


    Strength A
    Endurance C
    Agility C
    Magic D
    Luck C
    Noble Phantasm C+


    Class Skills:
    * Magic Resistance: Grants protection against magical effects.
    C – Cancel spells with a chant below two verses. Cannot defend against Magecraft on the level of High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals.

    Personal Skills:
    * Discernment of the Poor: Insight to see through the opponent's character and attribute.
    C – Accurate reading of body and vocal cues allows accurate identification of immediate intentions and surface emotions. It is hard to deceive this person, who put behind a life of comfort to learn the hard lessons of the world on her own, even going as far as to deceive the entire world herself.
    * Information Erasure: The removal of information regarding the Servant's true name, abilities, and appearance from the records and memories of all witnesses, including the opponent, following the conclusion of an engagement.
    E+ – Only information concerning appearance is erased, and only to the point where gender becomes too vague to be accurately recognized. However, she can expand the effect to include a single ally as well.


    Noble Phantasms:
    * Ooeyama Gyakusatsu – Massacre at Mount Ooe (大江山虐殺, Atrocity at Mount Ooe)
    Type: Anti-Army
    Rank: C+
    Range: 3-20
    Maximum number of targets: 50 people

    The assault that defeated the demons in Onigawa Castle took advantage of the debilitating effect of all the liquor the oni had ingested beforehand. The beasts were caught asleep and unaware to the point only Shutendouji, mightiest of them all, saw the treacherous attack coming. Usui no Sadamitsu’s Noble Phantasm reproduces this macabre means to achieve victory, by enforcing “an attack that cannot be perceived with the normal senses.”

    Upon planting her signature wooden beam on the ground and calling the name of the Noble Phantasm, all enemies within range are targeted by a spear attack undetectable by sight, hearing, smell or touch. In other words, supernatural abilities to sense and avoid danger are absolutely necessary to defend against this attack. A high Luck rank (at least B-rank) allows for a roll to avoid the attack as well. Sadamitsu may only aim the unnatural attacks as a group; all attacks are executed in the exact same manner.

    Regardless of the nature of the targets, all of the undetectable attacks are imbued with the “anti-Fiendish Kind” attribute.


    Background
    One of Minamoto no Yorimitsu’s retainers known as the Four Heavenly Kings; a popular hero from the Heian period, remembered as a man so feminine some historians consider the possibility of him being in fact a woman.

    Born as a woman but raised as a man, her official name was Taira no Tadamichi, although her childhood friends called her Kayoi. Despite her gender, she was well versed in wielding both words and blades as weapons, for she was expected to pretend to be a man her entire life. She was also known for her considerable strength, abnormal for her small build: a certain tale narrates how her father, to keep the baby Tadamichi from crawling away while he was crafting barrels, tied her waist to a heavy piece of iron. Sometime later, Watanabe no Tsuna would notice as he walked by that the baby was dragging the iron block as she wandered about chasing a cat. It was Watanabe’s narration of this episode that led to Yorimitsu’s interest in the girl in the future.

    The reason for the gender-bending subterfuge was basically the Taira clan’s acknowledgement of their gradual decadence; their notoriety being taken over by the burgeoning Fujiwara and Minamoto clans. They had reached a point where they could no longer restrict themselves by the unwritten rules of society: young Tadamichi proved to be a very talented girl since her early years; to give her away in some arranged marriage would be too much of a waste.

    Needless to say, her family was not very happy when Tadamichi ran away from home to live a carefree life. Yorimitsu found her working as a cook in an inn under the name Kinosuke. They became friends after working together to kill the murderer Monobe no Heita, who also happened to be in that place. It was Yorimitsu who gave her the name with which she would be immortalized in legend.

    Quickly, Usui no Sadamitsu was Yorimitsu’s most valuable piece. By acting as a woman poorly pretending to be a man, Sadamitsu drew attention away from Yorimitsu, who became the woman who did succeed at pretending to be a man her entire life. While the others were more skilled in the martial ways—and Kintoki was just, um, special—, Sadamitsu as a fellow woman was Yorimitsu’s advisor and confidant, as well as the occasional lover. Her cool, meditative demeanor acted as a good foil to Yorimitsu’s spontaneity and easygoing pace. So, even if she did not reach the level of notoriety of most of her fellows, she was very satisfied with her life in the end.

    Keyword
    Equipment: Usui no Sadamitsu’s favored weapon was, of all things, a thick, cylindrical wooden beam with a pointed end. It is not a very practical weapon, relying more on Sadamitsu’s great strength than in technical skill, but she just really likes using the thing. She’s perfectly capable of wielding a sword or a spear, of course.


    An image

    Yorimitsu-Usui_yuzuki-karu_d2a93117a78b5d700344f7f09e91e3f0.jpg
    It was this image that gave me the idea to work out Yorimitsu and Sadamitsu as fellow women pretending to be male. It perfectly fit my vision of the cool Sadamitsu diverting attention away from the hopelessly energetic Yorimitsu.
    Last edited by Daneel Rush; June 16th, 2012 at 12:25 PM.

  14. #2254
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
    Err, no, I find it quite fitting. Outwitting all the superpower navies of the world at time takes a biiiiit of a strategic mind. I mean, she was commanding and army of 80 000 or more men. What did Iskander have when he crossed the Hellespont? 45 000?
    She outwitted all of the ones that bothered to screw around in China (before China was an especially valuable place, mind you), and those pirates in her crew were pretty ordinary folks, not professional soldiers - and in fact, many of them were children. Her career lasted, what, 8 or 9 years? If that; she only became a real leader in the Red Flag Fleet in 1807. Her area of expertise was around the Guangdong province of China, hardly a massive stretch of sea in any respect.

    That's nothing compared to the man who, in twelve years and at a very young age, took over leadership of an already large country spanning many different social groups, and then conquered much of the known world, putting millions of square kilometres under his dominion, crushing each and every enemy who faced him while taking extremely minimal casualties.

    I'm sorry, but however great Ching Shih was in her area and her era, she was not nearly on the level of Alexander the Great. You're not looking for Military Tactics; you're looking for Charisma, which is the skill involved in leading large groups of people. I'd give her maybe about B rank.
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  15. #2255
    Click the moon for extra scenes Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    She outwitted all of the ones that bothered to screw around in China (before China was an especially valuable place, mind you),
    Actually, she specifically went after and destroyed the fleets that were petitioned and hired to hunt her, so no, it was not akin to randomly meeting some Dutch or British ships. After the whole Chinese Imperial Fleet lost, they had to resort to countries with more powerful naval armies, and even they could not take her down. There's a reason why she is called the "most succesful pirate ever".

    those pirates in her crew were pretty ordinary folks, not professional soldiers - and in fact, many of them were children.
    Oh? Care to show me the source about that kid-pirate squad? Because, you know, considering she had even harsher laws in her armada than those in any navy around the world, I doubt she would have needed them with children. Children rarely have the tendency of raping and murdering victims. The thing is, this lady held even stricter code on her ships than found in the armies of the times (or of the past), and with that, created an armada that systematically beat everyone who tried to challenge them up-and-down on the China's coastline.

    Her career lasted, what, 8 or 9 years? If that; she only became a real leader in the Red Flag Fleet in 1807. Her area of expertise was around the Guangdong province of China, hardly a massive stretch of sea in any respect.
    Considering she was taught by a man who came from a long line of famous pirate-commanders and actual Imperial Army Navy Commanders, I think it can be said that she learned quite a lot about strategy. Even the biggest fleet would fall if there was no strategic mind behind it, not to mention it was also the mind that took care of every single aspect of the organization. In other words, quite a shrewd mind.

    That's nothing compared to the man who, in twelve years and at a very young age, took over leadership of an already large country spanning many different social groups, and then conquered much of the known world, putting millions of square kilometres under his dominion, crushing each and every enemy who faced him while taking extremely minimal casualties.
    So what, now 12 years is long and 9 years is short? Anyways, at this point it has to be remembered that with Iskander, we're talking about an army marched across the land, not a one that was confined to the seas. Not to mention that at the time in China, the pirates would have been made out of very different social and cultural groups, nothing unlike what Iskander did. I could also make the notions of how different it is to lead an army on the land and army on the seas, how much such a simple fact as being able to send an messenger eases issuing orders on the battlefield, not being restrained by currents and such which, instead of blocking path like obstructions on land warfare, actually force your ships somewhere where you do not want them to be, how naval combat on chinese warships would take extremely careful planning when you could not equip them with stern chaser or bow chaser, and instead had to rely the regular method against much more advanced western fleets, not to mention the fact that as The Red Flag Fleet is constantly referred to a fleet that always outwitted the Imperial Navy, it would mean that they also too extremely minimal losses.

    Well, you get the idea. Naval combat tends to be a lot harder than the one on land, especially on the times of Iskander's kingdom. Not to say it was easy, no. However, there are lot more you have to take to mind when fighting on the seas. That I can say from experience. Even basic training showed that.

    I'd give her maybe about B rank.
    Huh? Which one are you talking about? Since, you know, they're both B.

  16. #2256
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
    Actually, she specifically went after and destroyed the fleets that were petitioned and hired to hunt her, so no, it was not akin to randomly meeting some Dutch or British ships. After the whole Chinese Imperial Fleet lost, they had to resort to countries with more powerful naval armies, and even they could not take her down. There's a reason why she is called the "most succesful pirate ever".
    Yeah. Most successful pirate ever. Which doesn't have that much of a standard - most pirates get executed, and she's one of the few who didn't.

    Oh? Care to show me the source about that kid-pirate squad? Because, you know, considering she had even harsher laws in her armada than those in any navy around the world, I doubt she would have needed them with children. Children rarely have the tendency of raping and murdering victims. The thing is, this lady held even stricter code on her ships than found in the armies of the times (or of the past), and with that, created an armada that systematically beat everyone who tried to challenge them up-and-down on the China's coastline.
    She had children in her fleet crews, as well as women. Men, too, of course, and they were the majority. And the fact that she needed those ridiculously strict rules is kind of telling. The reason why she enforced them in the first place was because her men believed that they could defy a woman leader. Alexander had Charisma enough that he didn't need to create harsh penalties to command his soldiers, nor his empire.

    Considering she was taught by a man who came from a long line of famous pirate-commanders and actual Imperial Army Navy Commanders, I think it can be said that she learned quite a lot about strategy. Even the biggest fleet would fall if there was no strategic mind behind it, not to mention it was also the mind that took care of every single aspect of the organization. In other words, quite a shrewd mind.
    Yes, because taking care of an organization of 80,000 people definitely trumps a massive empire stretching from Greece to India. Alexander was taught by the greatest minds of his era, learning from his genius father Philip and helping to reinvent warfare completely. What does Ching Shih have on the Battle of the Hydaspes? How about Gaugamela, or the capture of the Sogdian Rock?

    So what, now 12 years is long and 9 years is short? Anyways, at this point it has to be remembered that with Iskander, we're talking about an army marched across the land, not a one that was confined to the seas. Not to mention that at the time in China, the pirates would have been made out of very different social and cultural groups, nothing unlike what Iskander did. I could also make the notions of how different it is to lead an army on the land and army on the seas, how much such a simple fact as being able to send an messenger eases issuing orders on the battlefield, not being restrained by currents and such which, instead of blocking path like obstructions on land warfare, actually force your ships somewhere where you do not want them to be, how naval combat on chinese warships would take extremely careful planning when you could not equip them with stern chaser or bow chaser, and instead had to rely the regular method against much more advanced western fleets, not to mention the fact that as The Red Flag Fleet is constantly referred to a fleet that always outwitted the Imperial Navy, it would mean that they also too extremely minimal losses.
    Ching's actual time in power was only about 2-3 years. Before then, her husband was equally in charge. It's like considering the time Alexander spent with Philip crushing every last bunch of people as time spent in his campaign. Really, Alexander has 12 years solo, and Ching Shih has 2 years solo.

    And, we're talking about the early 19th century here. The communication in the 4th century BCE amounted to sending runners across a battlefield to enforce orders. In the heat of locked combat, that's a difficult thing. Which thousands of ships, as well as more modern technological advances, doing the same would be less difficult. And remember, Alexander wasn't dealing with sending messages from one end of a battlefield to another. No, he successfully sent messages from Greece to India and back regularly.

    The Red Flag Fleet is not only mentioned as a fleet that "outwitted" larger navies, it also didn't defeat any of those navies. It held them off, and staved off its own destruction for 2-9 years, but it didn't end them. What Alexander did was take on all of Persia; that's the equivalent of Ching Shih fighting the whole of the Imperial Navy, and then crushing them completely. Not winning a few battles and keeping them away, no: completely, utterly defeating and taking over the country.

    Look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Hydaspes

    Look at what Alexander was doing with his army against a much larger one, under the command of a notably skilled leader, with skilled troops that Alexander wasn't entirely used to. Look at how few casualties he took. He suffered only a few hundred losses! In a land battle of that era, that's completely ridiculous.

    Well, you get the idea. Naval combat tends to be a lot harder than the one on land, especially on the times of Iskander's kingdom. Not to say it was easy, no. However, there are lot more you have to take to mind when fighting on the seas. That I can say from experience. Even basic training showed that.
    Yes, and naval combat is so difficult that, even untrained, Alexander and Hannibal were able to succeed at their early attempts at such? Those being Alexander at Tyre, and Hannibal against Eumenes.

    Huh? Which one are you talking about? Since, you know, they're both B.
    Charisma, at B rank. That'd fit better than Military Tactics, especially since we don't have any solid evidence of any battles that Ching Shih fought.
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  17. #2257
    Click the moon for extra scenes Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    Yeah. Most successful pirate ever. Which doesn't have that much of a standard - most pirates get executed, and she's one of the few who didn't.
    Yeeeeeah, because being hunted everywhere and having to live a life of near constant battle has nothing akin to a standard. Suuuuure, it was just walk in a park that anyone could have done. And being able to create a successful navy armada out of people who were all like that is nothing. Anyone could do it.

    She had children in her fleet crews, as well as women.
    Once again:

    [Citation needed]

    And the fact that she needed those ridiculously strict rules is kind of telling. The reason why she enforced them in the first place was because her men believed that they could defy a woman leader. Alexander had Charisma enough that he didn't need to create harsh penalties to command his soldiers, nor his empire.
    Actually, that was not it. Any idea what kind of weapon it gives you when you, after finally assaulting the enemy ship from deck-to-deck, you release ship-full of angry, murderous, sexually-starving pirates who fear the wrath of their leader far more than anything else? Surprisingly, it made a pretty damn good shock troops, since that was the exact that tactic she used.

    Plus, you really think that she had to rely on such laws to keep them under control? That's 80 000 pirates, matey. If they wanted her out, they would have done so. And yet, they all kept following her, a woman's, lead. That could be said to be even bigger achievement in charisma than what Iskander did. He was already a king. This was a former hooker and the wife of their former leader. And she managed to become the leader of that whole organization. The one who was the one always given the first choice when it came to loot, and the rest would fight over the spoils after she had picked what she wanted.

    Yes, because taking care of an organization of 80,000 people definitely trumps a massive empire stretching from Greece to India. A
    That's 80 000 of men you're using in-battle, not the amount that were actually part of the organization. Smugglers, bribed officials, fences...all those were part of it too.

    And, we're talking about the early 19th century here. The communication in the 4th century BCE amounted to sending runners across a battlefield to enforce orders. In the heat of locked combat, that's a difficult thing. Which thousands of ships, as well as more modern technological advances, doing the same would be less difficult. And remember, Alexander wasn't dealing with sending messages from one end of a battlefield to another. No, he successfully sent messages from Greece to India and back regularly.
    Less difficult how? We're talking about a Chinese pirate armada here, not the British Imperial Navy. Contrary to what you might believe, in a vessel that's not from modern times, keeping contact was through signs and/or flags, and possibly horns during good weather. And that's pretty much what you get in the 4th Century BC battles too.

    The Red Flag Fleet is not only mentioned as a fleet that "outwitted" larger navies, it also didn't defeat any of those navies. It held them off, and staved off its own destruction for 2-9 years, but it didn't end them. What Alexander did was take on all of Persia; that's the equivalent of Ching Shih fighting the whole of the Imperial Navy, and then crushing them completely. Not winning a few battles and keeping them away, no: completely, utterly defeating and taking over the country.
    The difference here is, she had no reason to leave China. We have no idea what would have happened if she actually had decided she wanted to crush the British Imperial Navy completely. Or maybe you're talking about the Chinese Imperial Navy? Because, you know, she completely, utterly defeated them, and then decided to smooch money off the coastal towns since no one had the power to stop her. And what do we call an armed force that does what they want in a country that has been beaten too badly to do anything about them?

    Also, "staving off it's destruction" is a ludicrous term. The Chinese Goverment had to grant amnesty to the fleet, which amounts to surrendering, just to get them to stop. They could do nothing about them. So, they had to resort to dropping all charges against the Red Flag Fleet, and let them take all the booty they had gotten during their reign on the seas. That's nothing close to "Staving off it's destruction", that's humiliation a country, lifting it from it's legs and shaking all it's lunch money out of it. And then walking away with no repercursions because the principal is afraid of you.

    Look at what Alexander was doing with his army against a much larger one, under the command of a notably skilled leader, with skilled troops that Alexander wasn't entirely used to. Look at how few casualties he took. He suffered only a few hundred losses! In a land battle of that era, that's completely ridiculous.
    Catching enemy off-guard at the flank. Brilliant?

    Yes, and naval combat is so difficult that, even untrained, Alexander and Hannibal were able to succeed at their early attempts at such? Those being Alexander at Tyre, and Hannibal against Eumenes.
    Naval combat BC and naval combat at 19th century are a bit different thing. Namely, as I said, cannons make a big difference. Have you ever been on a warship? During training? Because I can tell you that even with modern technology, it takes a heck of a strategic eye to pull off.

    Charisma, at B rank. That'd fit better than Military Tactics, especially since we don't have any solid evidence of any battles that Ching Shih fought.
    Well, she has both. It is my interpration of the thing.

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    Bruce Wayne should be all D and E across the board, since his selling point is all regular mortal.

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    You forgot Batman's ultimate Noble Phantasm/skill, Prep time. It works like Robin Hood's subversive activities, only instead of nerfing his enemies it gives him bonuses to acquiring their weaknesses.

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