I believe its same usage as Universe of Awareness or Observation Universe and Record Universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
IMO those terms are better translated as Cosmos - like an order (秩序).
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I believe its same usage as Universe of Awareness or Observation Universe and Record Universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
IMO those terms are better translated as Cosmos - like an order (秩序).
宇宙?Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I think the most relevant one as related to what Arcueid causes is the whole 概念の宇宙 (conceptual universe)
This one also shows up in Mahoyo in regards to Flat Snark.
Does it have something to do with 惑星の記憶? The planet's memory. I've seen that term used a couple of times in different scenes but I'm still not quite sure I'm even close to grasping the concept. But maybe some observation record from the planet's perspective, kinda like the Moon Cell?
Spoiler:
Was the line. I can see drawing the connection to the conceptual universe given how Shiki remarks upon entering, that part of what Roa sought was appearing and we all know how ecstatic he was when Arc cubed him.
惑星の記憶 was used when Shiki descended into the universe of concepts funny enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
星の記憶 is used when Arc changed the hallway.
Good finding on that Roa bit. I can see the connection.
Those terms probably refer to the same thing. Also, Archetype's Arc Drive is called Memory. She says "this is the planet's memory" (hoshi no kioku).
How can she weaponize memories though? It's very intriguing.
Yeah, rather than what we think of a universe, 宇宙 and especially 概念宇宙 is usually used to mean space in which certain rules apply or do not apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrikow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
.Quote:
"So in other words, time there is not working properly. It's not like there's only one way for time to pass by. The time it takes for something to rot away is unfairly different for everything. Then, it should follow that a human individual and its memory take different times to disappear. When someone dies, does that person's memory disappear? It doesn't, right? As long as there are observers, ones to remember, nothing disappears instantly, but gradually fades away.
“Memories, or rather, "records". If an observer happens to be in the environment around that person, people like those girls will be preserved by their memories and walk the earth as "illusions" even after their deaths. This is part of the phenomenon which we know as "ghosts". The only ones who see these projections are the ones that share the memories with these ghosts, namely their parents and friends. Shiki, however, is an exception.
"Of course, the passage of time does affect these "records", but at the top of that building, it seems to occur at a much slower rate. The girls' memories from when they were alive have not caught up to their true state yet.
Marble Phantasm the memory. If it happened before it can happen now.
Heh, that makes it seem like Marble Phantasm can do literally anything.
well it's called 空想具現化 (materialization of fantasy) for a reason.
It basically can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
Man that scene with Shiki flying through the conceptual universe, seeing all of creation at extreme speeds is so fucking trippy. Nasu must have been on acid when he wrote that since that's how I feel when I play through it.
I think that was Nasu trying to one up ufotable who did that with Paradox Spiral which was trying to adapt Touko saying Ryougi might be dreaming of all creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya
Basically he had told us it and now he's trying to show us it. Evolution as a writer.
I was half expecting to see Arc clones start popping up as celestial bodies like Beast III/L's conceptual universe and does multiple different poses and then the main one chilling in the center like this CG lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya
Spoiler:
I don't even want to think about what's going to happen once Roa puts Arc in the middle of that underground sanctum.
Do you think that's actually a missing or pending plot element? I don't think that underground shrine was ever addressed. It was Vlob's lair but it didn't seem like he built it.
Pending. It's been there for years. Tohno land. MBTL makes it very apparent it's where Roa is going to conduct his ritual.
There's a reason why Roa uses NumerologyQuote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya
https://64.media.tumblr.com/012f4fe2...8589b3177d.png
Can't wait to see Beast V Arc in FGO part 3.
It's a cursed and nonsensical thought.
Spoiler:
Tsukihime was Eva all along. I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Very Important.
https://eyemirror.jp/tsukihime/
Hell no, keep Arc out of FGO pls. Anniversary guest fanservice Servant only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Emilio
what, you arent ready for the MC`s to fail in LB7 and run to the last place uncorrupted by the Alien God, The Moon!, where we get greeted by Arc who offers us up a base of operations for Part 3 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
Arc's edition of the Moon Cell, aptly called Moon Neuron.
What's the general consensus on Arach? From everything i've seen, there's a rather high degree of things she's involved with or responsible for in the Remake. If so, you think there's a good chance she'll be this "It was always me, Barry" type character?
Silicone-chan perhaps? Now that would be kind of cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by madarra
Arach was ORT all along. They`re both spiders, right?
not enough Dojjiko vibes? i guess...
Silicone-chan wouldnt/shouldnt have the same inherent desire to fix Earth that Arc wouldQuote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
How would that work? I thought Arc wasn't born in Fate timelines.
Arach definitely feels like the main villain of Tsukihime, seeing as she's the metaphorical glue tying the Dead Apostle plot and the Toono family plot together.
We'll have to see how it all shakes out once Red Garden's out, but I feel like Roa's gonna have a bigger role in Far Side in general this time around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Comun
I'm not sure about that. Her influence could be removed out of Arc and Ciel's routes and it wouldn't greatly impact the story. In comparison Roa is the source of all problems.
Maybe she'd have a bigger role in the far side, though that begs the question on what she is even doing there. It doesn't seem like there were any hints she is trying to carry out a major goal. If there was I missed it.
looking forward to Arach getting more involved because SHIKI is suppresing Roa and getting more character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrikow
Arach onyl gets to be the big finale only in Satsuki route where they fight over Twintailed brunette supremacy
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setting up all the underground caves for all the vampires coming to visit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
Be interesting to see how much Arach is behind, for example, everything Kohaku does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrikow
Kohaku, the unwitting Arach puppet. No thanks.
Personally holding out for Arach being a Kohaku-induced hallucination.
Nasu did said the "brain of the planet" still exists in Fate/Extra, apart from fanservice Arc, that is the equivalent to CM. So we don't know if that "brain" is the same as Arc, or based on CM, or Arc but not called Arc. We do know he exists in all timelines and got defeated in 300AD by Zelretch, and in Fate timelines True Ancestors also exist (the Church mistaken Yu Meiren as one). so it is safe to assume that the True Ancestor project still happen in the background despite the DAAs as a collective does not exist. Nasu also said that putting Arc in FGO wouldn't change her performance much, which indicates that the planet still recognizes her as its brain regardless of timelines. This means whoever the "brain" of the planet in Fate timeline is, they should be very similar to Arc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
all Arach needs is puppets... im not expecting her not to have them, with the whole spider gimmick. But she already has high knowledge of the human body, and does architect work on the side like Touko.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya
I guess it's a possibility. Though it wouldn't make much sense to me if there was a brain of the planet (earth) in Fate timelines, and they are still not doing anything after all this time, nor there was any offhand mention of them in the LB6 arc. The text that says the TA only created the brain of the planet at the end of their lifespan made it seem like they pulled out a miracle creating a very special existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Emilio
Maybe the brain of the planet is outside the timeline axis and can observe all parallel worlds simultaneously. Didn't AE also straight up jumped from MB to the Extra verse in the MBBAAN manga?
Arach could have a grander goal, but she's definitely not letting it show yet. In Blue Glass Moon, she's just completely dedicated to helping others, regardless of who they are. Collaborating with Roa's Pantheon project back in 2001 France, building (identical) lairs for Roa and Vlov despite the two being enemies, offering an injection to awaken Roa in Shiki, transforming Noel despite her being Roa's enemy, etc. She gave her definition of love as making people stronger and her actions follow this core principle of offering support indiscriminately.
That's a tough question. All Arach scenes in Arcueid's route come in a choice of talking to Arach or talking to Kohaku, and there's a clear contrast on how their known backstories affect their comments on Shiki wounds, so they're definitely meant to be foils in some way. But given Arach's general principles, I don't see her interfering in Kohaku's plans that much beyond enabling a Kohaku boss fight in some route.Quote:
Originally Posted by asterism42
Arach also tells Shiki to come see her if he wants his body to get back in form. I don't think she's going to be the final villain or anything though. She seems more like the type to just do her own thing, play both sides, and live by her own sense of things, to me. Maybe even be a strange ally at times.
As for Arc, given what we know, I feel like it makes a lot more sense for Arc as we know her to not be a thing in Fate but we don't know enough details to say for certain especially with fanservice and shit. The threat of CM should be ever present so long as Arc exists. But Gransurg casts doubt on CM being an issue in Fate. As does the entire split being about CM and Original One seeming like a Tsukihime only thing. If there is some unknown, new variable in the setting, such as the mechanism for CM's revival becoming more generally complex, then you could feasibly have the emotion deficient NEET princess who ends up not getting knife'd and sleeping forever when the impulse becomes too strong existing in Fate without CM being a problem. She'd be basically relegated to an irrelevant setting piece though... and I guess her role in Fate themes wouldn't be important if you think about it. I guess it's also possible for an Arc to exist that doesn't fit the position of Brain and is just a less special but still powerful TA.
I also think the whole "Worlds made stable by Alaya" vs "Worlds where Gaia manifests" probably comes into play somehow. To me it would make a whole lot of sense that if Alaya isn't opposed then maybe it prevents the creation of Gaia's Alter-Ego through the TA, preventing the CM issue. But in worlds where DAA are already a system by the time Zelretch defeats CM, Alaya doesn't stabilize the world and then the purpose of the TA are fulfilled and you have Arc born, threatening the awakening of CM and the eventuality of 終の檻 goodness. Non-Knife'd Tsuki worlds probably don't fare too well in the long run. Furthermore, doesn't Zepia imply the battle with CM is when the potential for him and Gransurg to be compatriots is cut? This implies that worlds that became Fate could have become Tsukihime worlds depending on CM's actions I think. And it's probably whether he made the DAA system a thing before he died. And with how the planet was trying to make a King but couldn't no matter how hard it tried, edit* (imitating the moon more specifically) in the old lore and the reason the planet and CM joined hands in the first place being humanity... it seems to fit well. But who the fuck knows.
Seems difficult to tell unless someone literally asks Nasu if Arc exists in Fate. Since they keep saying any of her appearances are fanservice it feels impossible to tell unless she were to play some role in the story.
Also where does Gransurg show up in Fate? Only stuff I could find on him was that he died shortly after CM's defeat in Fate timelines.
in Waver Files, they meet Zepia and he implies he`d be a vampire in Tsuki worlds therefore on the same side as Gransung. That and Grey`s gravekeeper`s shtick is tied to a graveyard named Blackmore in his memoryQuote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
Case Files is where it's brought up. Zepia mentions in book 6 about how he died in this script before they could have been allies and remarks it was 1700 years ago.
I'll check those out sometime. That's some interesting stuff.
Thinking on this it's interesting how Arc can become Crimson Moon, while Gray was raised in Blackmore cemetery and was meant to become a copy of King Arthur, there's probably some thread linking it all even if the process for Gray is distinct because Morgan is involved in that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by madarra
Haha, what ifFGO LB6 spoilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockxas
but you cant summon heroic spirits in Tsuki worlds where CM is ressurecting.
so either CM can Rezz and Morgans version probably doesnt work? would it work? Or CM cant ress and its a Fate world and Morgan tries to ressurect King Arthur (and gets Waver`d)
i guess the Blackmore memorial graveyard could hold the info Morgan needs for this theory
Tsuki World Gray grew into a normal adult with nothing ever happening to her until 2014 when Saber is summoned into Melty and she becomes a Saberface at 25 years old
There are also worlds that are a bit of a hybrid between a distinctive Fate timeline and a distinctive Tsukihime timeline as well, namely: the world of Fate/Strange Fake and FGO. In other words, there are hybrid worlds where the Human Order is not stabilized enough to guarantee no Tsukihime elements but also not fucked up enough to guarantee the scale of Tsukihime shenanigans. That's how they had the comparison of DAAs and Divine Spirits in SF and the existence of TA in FGO, and Rasputin also found information about Ultimate One of the Oort Cloud from mecha Hephaestus' terminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya
It is possible that because some timelines are not pure Tsuki or Fate but hybrid like FGO, SF, the condition for Arc to be born was possible but due to the threat of the DAAs, the other TAs are small, Arc was not needed and she stays asleep forever in her castle in Avalon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
It is possible and is something available for high ranking divine spirits i.e Amaterasu, Tiamat and high rank Clairvoyance users. It can also be an effect similar to Independent Manifestation of the Beasts as Void Shiki and Merlin also have it. Tiamat was able to observe Beast VI in another timeline and send an Alter Ego of herself to that timeline to help fighting it for example, and was the only Beast who did not actually die when defeated, rather she got sealed back again and all events involving her emergence got removed. If Arc has Independent Manifestation, I can see that her case would be either similar to Tiamat - a cornerstone of history of the planet that has to exist in all timelines but her awakening depends on special circumstances, or similar to Kiara where Arc as a TA exist in all timelines but their role differ from the other, even if they all have capabilities to become the Brain. Another possibility is that it's not Arc but Altrouge who became the Brain in Fate worlds taking Arc's position and that was why Primate Murder is now in Merlin's care instead.Quote:
Maybe the brain of the planet is outside the timeline axis and can observe all parallel worlds simultaneously. Didn't AE also straight up jumped from MB to the Extra verse in the MBBAAN manga?
Hmm, it's weird because in Ciel's route it states Arc's soul is stored in the inner sea and leaks to the surface if her body is destroyed. And the inner sea itself seems to be in the 6th dimension and I'm not sure what kind of physics even run in there.Maybe it has something to do with having an ego or not. It's possible Arcueid technically exists in all worlds, that soul in the inner sea is her but the difference is whether the TAs managed to find a way to give her an ego or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Emilio
The inner sea is Avalon. We went there in LB6 and it doesn't have any huge differences from outside other than the rule of "evil cannot be there" and the environment is still Age of Gods. The inner sea seems to function similarly to the gap of the Textures (Wandering Sea location), the Realm of the Gods and the Realm of the Xians, and the Imaginary Number Dimension (Tiamat's prison cell) are places cut off from the surface Texture you can't get to via normal means, but not impossible to reach. There are multiple versions of these places in different timelines, like Prototype's Avalon having Proto Merlin and other Fate timelines' Avalon has Merlin. But since the place is huge, the part where Merlin is in is not the same as the part Fafnir Sieg got to or where Arc is anyways. It is possible to damage the planet's soul through drastic means like the state of Extra after Overcount 1999 where it is said that the planet's soul is hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
It is easier to understand via how she is classified as with the term: A-ray (yes, the same 亜麗 in Notes tho quite different in how they are created compare to Notes, also called A-rei in LB6). Going by this description, A-rays are greater fairies who are basically bunreis of the planet's soul. Bunrei (divided spirit) is usually a term used to describe a clone of a god's soul that by all intent and purpose are supposed to be that god but not THE original god themselves and can derive further from their roots (think Tamamo, who is pretty much an Alter Ego of Amaterasu). The A-reis are similar to gods in that they are manifestations of nature itself, but they are not covered in the rules of humans (which explains why they are used to model the TAs, and TAs who get involved with humans began to become more human). in Arc's case, she is the highest quality bunrei.Quote:
Maybe it has something to do with having an ego or not. It's possible Arcueid technically exists in all worlds, that soul in the inner sea is her but the difference is whether the TAs managed to find a way to give her an ego or not.
In addition, you can look at CHALDEAS. CHALDEAS is a mystic code that functions base on a copy of the planet's soul. You cannot copy the entire planet as an existence, but you can copy its soul and work on it because it is data. It is basically an encrypted file that currently humans cannot decrypt its contents beyond the surface. Arc is basically a host for such a file created by the planet. So I don't think it's "Arc's soul is in the inner sea", but rather "Arc's soul is a copy of the planet's soul" and if you destroy her in the wrong way, it causes a data leak due to the 2-way connection between both hers and the planet's soul inside the inner sea, like how the Moon Cell affecting the Throne of Heroes, Moon Sefar got knocked out when Earth Sefar got blasted, due to their tight connections.
I see, that does seem like a good explanation.
What would you say are the chances Roa's great plan is something pure and he just wants to heal Arc's vampiric impulses?
He is depicted as a more sympathetic character, more so than in OG and since Shiki shared his knowledge and memories for a bit he would have probably hated him had his plan been something particularly terrible. He felt more sympathy and compassion for him than anything.
I think what we see in his Lumina/MBAA ending might be the end result of his plan but skipping all the process and details.
Doesn't sound like Roa. Even in the remake, he only does things for his own benefit. His nicer side always comes out in the form of being very receptive to others also benefitting from his actions. In creating the Burial Agency, he gave a safe space to all shunned freaks loyal to the church's cause, but the intention was just to get a safe space for himself and benefitting others was a bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartz
And the implied Pantheon plan, at least in how I interpret it, would see Roa making a hole in the firmament to continue his eternal journey in the cosmos beyond. Instead of tearing down the firmament and involuntarily exposing Earth to the truth of the cosmos, he wants to leave a hole open for his escape, and for the escape of anyone likewise interested in exploring the universe. This mirrors the Burial Agency situation. Roa is doing things for himself, but in a way that welcomes anyone trying to do the same. And he got 6 Ancestors contributing to his demo in France, he might be pushing a method beneficial to the Crimson Moon plan as well.
And then his partnership with Shiki in Ciel route is because the first run-in with Shiki made Arcueid lose her perfection, so Roa wasn't invested in her anymore. He always plays for his own benefit, but in this situation, where he has no horse in this race, he has no qualms about helping out a host body with their own causes. See also how he first let SHIKI stab Shiki in Arc's route before taking over to do his thing. Roa is a straight up bro when it comes to things he doesn't care about, I'll give you that, but Arcueid's situation couldn't be further from that.
This is an interesting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Emilio
Quote:
"Is the place Shiki cut all right? I heard Shiki cut you around the heart area, near the main artery... I would assume it was in your bicuspid valve."
She says an amazing thing with a normal tone. I let out a smile as a testament to her weirdness.
"What a strange person. I wouldn't be able to talk to you like this if my heart had been cut."
"Of course. That was just for confirmation."
I see. With that question she confirmed if I was the woman stabbed by that person who I couldn't classify as Japanese-styled or Western-styled.
"But the effect will come in time, Shiki's eyes are strong. Even if that thing was your second existence, the destruction will reach you in time. I wanted to ask you a few things before that... which is why I came here."