Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Cruor]

Considering how Lancelot pretty much dueled Gil equally for the entirety of the 4th, I would say that he is goddamn powerful.

Eh, not exactly. And he's one of my favorite Servants.

During first fight- Gil shot 16 blades one by one or two at a time at him not taking him seriously at all. Gil gets pissed and pulls out 32 swords and prepares to do a volley. Lancelot has to change strategies.

During the dog fight Gil still jokingly fights him and is technically the one doing better.... at least until Lancelot changes targets and goes after Saber which somehow manages to give Gil an opening point instead and not Lancelot; which Lancelot takes advantage of and blows him out of the sky and goes after Saber.

Gil was definitely not taking him seriously at all. If he was even half serious he could've won if there were no distractions. But yeah, the thing is, fighting effectively is tactics and distractions is strategy both of which Gil seems to suck at.

So yeah, if Gil bothered launching any of the high count numbers we see in Fate route (like 64 and 108 or whatever) he'd lose. But Gil never takes anyone that seriously unless it's SEEIIBAAA.

[I3uster]

Eternal Arms Mastery just lets him use his NPs and fighting skill even when batshit crazy.
Arondight is fucking powerful, but it's no GoB, Ea or Excalibur.

[Mellon]

Because Archers attributes, even IF he came to that level (I don't think so, surely he was boosted but as good as Archer just with the arm?) are obviously better than Sabers.

Nobody is arguing that stats are useless, but a battle of Servants is a batte of NPs first and a battle of stats second.

Archers technique was not even a NP and was based on spamming K&Bs (not activating and using NPs). Its like TAs dirkspam. How does this prove that "NPs are more important then stats"?

[Tobias]

Mh, actually he used FSG (and ME, true).

Wait, doesn't Arondight powers up ME too? What kind of stats does he get in the end? EX+? No seriously, if that's so... Arondight is like ME sans madness, but then we find out it boost is madness?

... no, wait Eternal Arms already provides a form of ME sans madness, Tobias. Arondight seems even more useless now...

I don't understand Lancelot anymore...

*facepalm*



arondight stacks with ME. thats not hard concept.

and no, actually, ignoring the fact that EAM and ME dont actually devalue arondight's status as a great noble phantasm for a moment, it just means berserker doubled up on the advantage.

Tobias. Arondight seems even more useless now...

thats because your silly.

[I3uster]

Archers technique was not even a NP and was based on spamming K&Bs (not activating and using NPs). Its like TAs dirkspam. How does this prove that "NPs are more important then stats"?

You know what proves NPs are more useful than stats?
Gilgamesh's existence.

[Tobias]

iunno, if someone had the stats over a normal servant in the way that gil has the noble phantasms over a normal servant, and gil and that person went head to head, I would bet on the guy with the stats.

[Tangerang]

You know what proves NPs are more useful than stats?
Gilgamesh's existence.

You know what proves NPs aren't more useful than stats?

UBW Shirou's UBW.

[Nanaya]

Not sure Gil is a great example. I mean, he's like the exception.

[Cruor]

I forgot, are Lancelot's stats without ME or with ME? I remember one time we had a discussion where we kinda became under the impression that both Berserker's stats are so even without ME and that with ME is a Rank up of everything on the Stats screen.

So yeah, it's quite possible that Lancelot's stats receive two rank boosts.

[I3uster]

I'd bet on the guy who can shoot legendary weapons out of all angles.
Heck, it doesn't even need Gil for that. You can Gae Bolg/Ea/Excaliblast the guy. Or Alex RM. Or Archers RM.

Those things are so incredibly ridiculously powerful, I suppose people here forgot that. They are the embodiment of the legend of their respective wielders. The weapon makes the wielder.

You know what proves NPs aren't more useful than stats?

UBW Shirou's UBW.

You know who had the better stats in that matchup. Don't play stupid.

[Mellon]

During first fight- Gil shot 16 blades one by one or two at a time at him not taking him seriously at all. Gil gets pissed and pulls out 32 swords and prepares to do a volley. Lancelot has to change strategies.

You are mostly correct.

However, a correction. It was 16 at the same time. Not 1 or 2 at the same time.

The air around Archer starts dancing again. Like a halo, a golden majesty twirls in circles to show a flock of new Noble Phantasms— now sixteen of them.
Not just spears and swords. There are axes. Hammers and halberds. Even items with indefinite usage or origin, bladed weaponry with a strange shape.
Every single one of them is polished like a mirror, and still has an enormous amount of prana flowing from them. Not one of them is below the level of a divine mystery... All of them, no exception, are indeed Noble Phantasms.
"That's, not possible..."
That was Waver thinking out loud. But the other Masters and Heroic Spirits probably thought likewise.
A Heroic Spirit doesn't need to stop at one Noble Phantasm. Sometime, someone can treasure three, four super weapons that qualify as such. But nobody could have that many.
And here— Archer is throwing them one after the other like he has an inexhaustible supply of them. And not one of them was even already seen in the battle against Assassin the previous night.
"Let's see— just to what point this little compulsive thief can keep up!"
At Archer's command, the flock of Noble Phantasms floating in the air were left loose, rushing toward Berserker.

You know who had the better stats in that matchup. Don't play stupid.

Shirou himself says that he is not capable of fighting a Master, even with UBW.

And this is the guy with hundreds of NPs like Gil. By your logic, he should have no trouble owning someone like Rider or Berserker.

You know what is the difference between UBW!Shirou and Gil? Stats.

[Sherrinford]

apparently, that servant stats are worthless.

If you're talking about me, I never said that.

and no, actually, ignoring the fact that EAM and ME dont actually devalue arondight's status as a great noble phantasm for a moment, it just means berserker doubled up on the advantage.

So, thanks to EAM and ME he gets rank up and sanity. Arondight idem. He doesn't double the advantage... he doesn't become more sane than what he could be (in other words he doesn't get +1 rank in "sanity") or more skilled with weapons if you pile up (EAM+ME) + Arond.

Edit:

I forgot, are Lancelot's stats without ME or with ME? I remember one time we had a discussion where we kinda became under the impression that both Berserker's stats are so even without ME and that with ME is a Rank up of everything on the Stats screen.

So yeah, it's quite possible that Lancelot's stats receive two rank boosts.

Mh, if this is true, Arondight might not be that useless after all, but we still don't know how "A rank +1 up" works...

[Tobias]

noooo...the advantage of ME is the stat boost. thanks to EAM, he still can fight at full ability.

arondight adds an additional stat boost, without any consequence.


thus, the advantage is doubled.

[Tangerang]

You know who had the better stats in that matchup. Don't play stupid.

I'm talking about the gametext itself which basically said that NPs aren't everything. Go reread the scene again.

'blah blah even with all these NPs I can't match any other Servants blah blah'

So, thanks to EAM and ME he gets rank up and sanity. Arondight idem. He doesn't double the advantage... he doesn't become more sane than what he could be (in other words he doesn't get +1 rank in "sanity") or more skilled with weapons if you pile up (EAM+ME) + Arond.

...what?

[Mcjon01]

Archers technique was not even a NP and was based on spamming K&Bs (not activating and using NPs). Its like TAs dirkspam. How does this prove that "NPs are more important then stats"?

Not really related, but this just reminded me of a crazy thought I had that the "artificial phantasm" in Heaven's Feel actually refers to Archer's arm itself. Something about how Shirou uses it to recreate Archer's experience, and Noble Phantasms being recreations of a Hero's legendary deeds. Or something.

...I'm not sure where I was going with it.

[Cruor]

However, a correction. It was 16 at the same time. Not 1 or 2 at the same time.

Hmm? I can't remember the exact wording but didn't in the next few paragraphs/lines say something like he kept catching some swords as they went down and used it to block the next few blades until he saw a better one then swapped with it and then used that one to block the next few? That doesn't really sound at all like they were launched at or around same time but more like launching one or 2 at a time then waiting a moment then launching another two.

[I3uster]

I'm talking about the gametext itself which basically said that NPs aren't everything. Go reread the scene again.

But it is the perfect example of beating an absolutely superior opponent with the right weapon.

And thats the thing about NPs. They are like the right weapon. In every situation.

I you could attach God Hand to an all E Ranked drunkard of hero and he would most likely win against a A+++ super special awesome guy of death who has to fight unarmed.

[Cruor]

But it is the perfect example of beating an absolutely superior opponent with the right weapon.

Not really. The game text itself said that UBW's useless against anyone not named Gil.

[I3uster]

Thats what I said?

[Sherrinford]

...what?

Considering that I don't think +1 stat boost an advantage, the only way for lance to get a boost is in quality (sanity or dexterity with arms), not quantity (of stats). Anyway, reread mine and Tobias, maybe it'll help.