You're mixing up method and objective, don't do that.Originally Posted by Embrace tophats
You're mixing up method and objective, don't do that.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
It's naht.
Very crude utilitarianism as a way to universal happiness? Yeah, I don't know.
fair enough, but you can't fully separate the two either. again, how is his dream any different from say...the UN?
The issue with Kiritsugu is neither his end goal (world peace) nor his method (eliminating the few to help the many); neither of those make him immature.
The issue is that his method isn't in line with his goal and he literally can't think of any way to actually accomplish his goal, which is why he gets wrecked by Angra Mainyu at the end of Zero.
Aiming for a far-fetched ideal isn't bad. Desperately holding on to a childhood dream that you have no idea how to accomplish is.
TL;DR: The problem isn't with the goal, it's with Kiritsugu.
Last edited by Siriel; September 9th, 2015 at 11:28 AM.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Dies just before the story takes place.
I think he was the last thing keeping Shirou back from full savior mode.
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yes that's the joke.
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
method 1- kill all the evil people
method 2- use the omnipotent magical device
seems like he has the method down. not sure if he would be able to pull the first off by himself but that is besides the point
I am amazed by how badly you missed the entire point of Kiritsugu's role in Zero.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
if you are asking me if i get some symbolic role that a character is meant to represent then no. i never gave two shits about that and i never will. i look at characters for who they are and what they have done. Symbolism can go shoot itself in the face as far as i am concerned.
(even though i understand your argument)
Last edited by Embrace tophats; September 9th, 2015 at 11:45 AM.
It has nothing to do with symbolism or reading between the lines. Angra Mainyu nicely comes out and spells out Kiritsugu's problem for the audience at the end of Zero.
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That's what's amazing. The author invokes an (for all intent and purposes) omniscient being to explain why it doesn't work, and people still somehow think Kiritsugu is a functioning individual.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
For starters, the UN isn't just one man deciding who lives or dies.
To paraphrase what Siriel said in another thread, do you really want something that desires to kill all humans to say "man, what a great plan you have there"?
Even if Angra hadn't tainted the Grail, Kiritsugu's wish couldn't be achieved because he had no idea how to accomplish it.
functioning? yes
the problem is that the grail is not what was advertised (corruption or not). as far as i can tell, he was told the mechanics and why it was omnipotent. they never told him he needed to know the method. also, by kiritsugu's method, the grail would probably kill half of the people on earth and prevent the birth of those akasha decided would be evil, but i guess Angra decided to be a dick and prevent the grail from doing that
How would he not have to know the method to archive something?
Aus Feuer ward der Geist geschaffen,
drum schenkt mir süßes Feuer ein!
Die Lust der Lieder und der Waffen,
die Lust der Liebe schenkt mir ein,
der Trauben süßes Sonnenblut,
das Wunder glaubt und Wunder thut!
Hmmm...I always thought Zero dealt more with human nature and less with the inherent mechanics of the Grail.
except until the end when the grail went "fuck it! i'm omnipotent and react on voice command but you need to read the fine print in the manula first!"
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archive?
when you ask a Djin for 3 wishes and assuming he doesn't screw you over, do you have to know the process that goes in to getting your wish right off the bat?
have you seen the movie "Absolutely anything"? the MC is omnipotent. he doesn't have to say how to stop war and reverse global warming. stuff just happens. in fact, omnipotency outright implies skipping any steps to achive the result and just reality warp the result into existence
Last edited by Embrace tophats; September 9th, 2015 at 12:08 PM.
Seriously? Please go reread Zero.
If you can't see the problem with having a goal and not being able to figure out how to accomplish it with world-shaping power, you need to reflect on it.
I...what?
What does evil even have to do with anything?
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It does. Kiritsugu's goal is fundamentally opposite to humanity itself, so he can't figure out how to accomplish it except by using a method that would wipe out humanity. The Grail is only there to serve as a demonstration of that by having Angra Mainyu point out that even with the power to shape the world, Kiritsugu wouldn't be able to bring about world peace except by destroying humanity.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
We know. We are enjoying it.
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I think that's the entire point, though. It's definitely not the first story where wishes come with fine print, with the message being essentially that people are flawed, hence their wishes are flawed. An inherently flawed wish gets an equally flawed fulfillment. People cannot percieve the flaws in their wishes, but an omnipotent entity can.
depends if you consider being obcessed and feeling pain and guilt from happiness is being functional. i do. he can do the job he does and can live by himself and is able to have some degree of a social/family life. i call that being functional
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