Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Mcjon01]

You know, I tried once but I was never actually able to fond a source for “broken phantasm increases the rank by one”

Where is that from?

[madarra]

For skills and NPs, though, it's shakier. We have the case of modifiers on personal skills being conditional, for instance how Hector's Military Tactics is C+ where the modifier is active during attrition fights. We also have cases where that's true for NPs, like Rama's Brahmaastra is A+ and is mentioned to have notable power against demonic existences, so potentially it's an A rank NP with the modifier active against demonic existences.

The problem is that we have a lot of cases of skills and Noble Phantasms with modifiers that don't seem to have that sort of conditionality we'd associate with modifiers as we know them in parameter rules. This is most often the case in A+/A++ stuff, which seem to be 'treated' as the next step up from A..

Its probably just my headcanon,but i think the conditionallity of those NPs is just "more mana"

Like in Fate, Seibe used Excalibur to kill Rider and her Pegasus, Riders NP is A+, so for Seiba to win she had to pull out all the stops and use a A++ Excalibur.

But later in the forest, after barely gaining a mana supply Seiba tries to Excaliblast Herk, but she doesnt have the time or mana to charge it fully,so she barely gets a A rank no plus blast and Illya laughs at her for not even taking 2 lives.

Mind you,this idea was formed before the reveal of proto excalibur and the 13 seals,and before FGO transfered that to excalibur proper.

Also, didnt FGOs rampant NP interlude rank inflation get stealth fixed in a patch that brought all NP ranks back down to their canon values?

[Skull]

Huh, I was always under the impression that Broken Phantasms didn't increase the Rank, just that the power boost cancelled out the effects of the Rank Down that Archer Tracing NPs caused.

Though I'm probably wrong as usual.

[madarra]

Oh yeah i also wanna say we dont have any proof that Emiya can BP every NP. Since the limit on UBW is A++ i assume he cant BP anything that is higher than A+, but thats definitely headcanon.

[Rafflesiac]

You know, I tried once but I was never actually able to fond a source for “broken phantasm increases the rank by one”

Where is that from?

I assume it's because Projection ranks NPs down but Caladbolg's only A+ so it'd have to go back up somehow to punch through God Hand.

[asterism42]

i mean a bp must logically be more powerful than its normal weapon attack otherwise thered be no point in using it

[Mcjon01]

I mean that’s my point, when it’s explaining BPs it just says it lets the NP exceed its normal attack power, not that it goes up one letter rank

[Daiki]

otherwise thered be no point in using it

It depends, it's about making a mystery explodes vs doing what it is supposed to do.

It serves a decent purpose when you shoot them from a bow but you might prefer regular abilities depending on the situation.

For example, against Saber in HA, Archer opts for regular Hrunting instead of nuke arrows.

[falseCeilings]

The meaning of A+ likely depends on the context. In some cases it is a conditional modifier, in some cases it likely just means "above A" (i.e. Brahmastra Kundala as opposed to Brahmastra).

EX is just a rank that (loosely) stands for everything that is powerful enough that it is pointless to classify. Ea shows you what's underneath the timid surface of the world, Avalon is an impenetrable defense (up to 6D, whatever the fuck that means), Vasavi Shakti is simply powerful enough that it makes no sense to speak of it in terms of ranks within the power levels of the series (though it is, in essence, "just" a nuke) - then there's that bag of rice that never gets empty, etc.

So there's no general rule for what happens if you project something that's EX rank, except that in some vague sense, the projection should be worse at whatever the original thing was.

[You]

And even if you assume that thing exists outside gameplay, like I said multiple times, it is a holy sword which EMIYA cannot project in normal circumstances, said by Nasu himself in Extra mats, you can't deny it and pretend it doesn't exist so your example can stand, you understand my point here? You stubbornly trying to insert it into the discussion more and more only make it redundant and make you look like someone in denial of the fact that EMIYA cannot trace holy swords normally outside exceptions like Caliburn and Durandal.

Now if you can stop inserting that into the discussion and just stick with a hypothetical situation that there's an EX rank sword S that is neither divine construct nor alien nor holy sword, it would help everyone.

奈須さ～んCHECK!
一考するとアーチャー有利なのですが、ロングレンジではライダー有利？　と言われてい
る通り、相性は決して良くありません。勝ち方に拘らない、という点でも共通する二人で
すから、ローリスクハイリターンな戦法を選ぶのは必至。セイバークラスの聖剣を持ち出
したとしても、アーチャーには全性能を引き出す魔力がないので、ベルレフォーンを迎撃
するのは難しい。アイアス単体でベルレを防ぎきれるかどうかが勝敗の分かれ目か……？
Nasu-san CHECK!
You would think Archer would have the advantage, but Rider actually has the edge at long range? Just like that question, their compatibility is not very good. Since both aren't fixated on the methods of winning, they'd definitely both choose a low-risk and high-return type of warfare.
Even if Archer takes out a Saber-class holy sword, he doesn't have enough magical energy to draw on to maximize it, so it'd be hard to for him to attack Bellerophon. What determines victory or defeat is whether Aias on its own would be enough to block Bellerophon perhaps...?

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I mean that’s my point, when it’s explaining BPs it just says it lets the NP exceed its normal attack power, not that it goes up one letter rank

Pretty sure it was based on an argument like this.

I assume it's because Projection ranks NPs down but Caladbolg's only A+ so it'd have to go back up somehow to punch through God Hand.

And not anything else actually in the text.

[Lily Emilio]

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EXTRAでは錬鉄の可能条件もアップするため、性能は劣るものの、聖剣クラスの投影も可能のようだ

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[You]

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[Lily Emilio]

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http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread...=1#post3008696

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[SpoonyViking]

I'm lost.

[Mcjon01]

　日本国民は, 正当に選挙された国会における代表者を通じて行動し, われらとわれらの子孫のために, 諸国民との協和よる成果と, わが国全土にわたつて自由のもたらす恵沢を確保し, 政府の行為によつて再び戦争の惨禍が起ることのないやうにすることを決意し, ここに主権が国民に存することを宣言し, この憲法を確定する. そもそも国政は, 国民の厳粛な信託によるものであつて, その権威は国民に由来し, その権力は国民の代表者がこれを行使し, その福利は国民がこれを享受する. これは人類普遍の原理であり, この憲法は, かかる原理に基くものである. われらは, これに反する一切の憲法, 法令及び詔勅を排除する.

???

[Zurvan]

I'm lost.

Discussion whether Archer can or cannot create Holy swords. Given that Durandal is one he made in FSN kinda makes the Mooncell call out odd. Regardless Archer is highly unlikely to be able to recreate a super strong weapon due to mana costs.

[Vrshko]

?????

[Rafflesiac]

Isn't that Extra quote explicitly about Excalibur, referred to as a holy sword, because of the devs sneaking Excalibur Image in under Nasu's nose and him deciding to accomodate him?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I thought Archer's theoretical limit was no Divine Constructs, not Holy Weapons. Well, I guess Excalibur is kinda fiddly...

[Zurvan]

The issue with that is that we don't know what counts as a divine construct vs a holy sword, or more importantly if there's even a difference.

Do we have any holy sword we know isn't a divine construct?