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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #146981
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobin View Post
    I know that conscious decision making plays a part in it, but how exactly is it that Zouken hasn't become a Dead Apostle through magecraft and how he sustains himself regardless of how he feels about the matter?
    *page32|
    "This raises a question. You are already immortal. You have lived for over five centuries. Then, is your wish not already granted?"
    "[line4]Hah."
    The old magus lets out a cry.
    Who would know that the cry is not a laugh, but a cry of anger?

    *page33|
    [line3]Yes, Matou Zouken is almost immortal.
    He will live as long as there are bodies to infest and his soul remains alive.

    *page34|
    But[line3]there is only pain.
    Matou Zouken does not wear his current form by choice.

    *page35|
    Turning his body into something inhuman and mimicking human form.
    There is a limit to this magic.
    It is like a machine. A machine can run forever in theory, but its parts rust over time.
    Parts rust. Cogwheels slide out of place. Programs become obsolete.
    *page36|
    "[line3]No, no. I am not immortal, Assassin.
    My body rots. It will rot no matter how many times I get a new body. It will rot no matter what I do.
    This new body has begun to rot already.
    Can you begin to understand the discomfort and disgrace of rotting alive[line3]the despair upon learning that your body is not human?"

    *page37|
    "Why does it rot? Are the worms not able to make a proper body?"

    *page38|
    "Haha, that is not true. The worms are lively. They have no problem as a body. From the start, I became a parasite in grief over my aging body. They serve perfectly as a body.
    I chose this method to prolong my life forever while retaining my humility."
    *page39|
    "...I am even more confused. Is that all you can manage, even with the power to perfectly preserve your body? First of all, why are you taking the form of an old man?
    If you are able to shape the flesh into any form, you should be able to take any appearance."

    *page40|
    "That is a good question. Then let me ask you. Let's say something that lost its original body tries to reproduce its body with its powers.
    In that case[line3]what do you think restores the body to its original form?"
    "[line3]The body records itself. Even after it is burned or cut, the body is able to restore its original appearance, because there is an internal blueprint."

    *page41|
    "Yes. A body's composition is recorded in its genes. But it is different in my case. I lost my body, the place where my composition was recorded. I can no longer use that blueprint to recreate my body.
    In that case[line3]what do you think records my body and gives it form?"

    *page42|
    "[line8]"
    It is obvious.
    The soul.
    It is not the law of the physical world, but something of the higher order, the record of all the bodies within the concept of the astral world.
    ...Yes, if one has the soul, one should be able to reconstruct their body even if the original body and genes have been lost.
    So in other words, this old magus is...

    *page43|
    "[line3]I see. You keep your soul alive, while taking the bodies of other creatures as your own[line3]so that is the trick behind your immortality.
    That must be why you cannot turn yourself into anything else. What you are keeping alive is your soul, not your body.
    So that is why you cannot take any other form but that of Matou Zouken?"

    *page44|
    "Of course. I am not taking form as an old man because I want to.
    ...Look, this is the only form I can create. And it is a poor creation that rots away unless I exchange it periodically. I used to be able to last fifty years before I had to exchange my body, but I have to exchange it every few months now.
    ...Who can understand the pain I feel as I rot away? Do not misunderstand, Assassin of this generation. Do not call such a thing immortality[line4]"

    *page45|
    Irritation can be heard in the voice of the old magus.
    It has been three days since Assassin's summoning.
    He finally sees the true nature of his summoner.

    *page46|
    "...I understand now. So what is rotting is not your body, but..."
    "...Yes, my soul is rotting.
    Time even affects ethereal bodies. Therefore, my physical body will rot. It is natural for my body to rot if my soul, the blueprint of my body, is rotten."

    *page47|
    "Hm[line3]so that is why you seek the Holy Grail.
    ...No wonder you are angry. Such eternity must be more painful to you than those who have no idea of eternity."
    "Exactly.
    ...My body rots. I need to be freed from this pain, from this poison violating deep into my bones...!
    The Holy Grail exists for that purpose. I have persisted for that purpose."

    *page48|
    "...Right. I do not want to die. I want to live. It is dreadful to think that I will disappear from this world...!
    To escape this fate, I have lived for hundreds of years, devouring the flesh of thousands...! Do you understand, master of the mountain? I hate myself for turning myself into worms. I hate being the only one who rots away. I hate all humans for being given bodies as a matter of course[line3]!"
    The difference is that Dead Apostles take in foreign DNA to reconstruct their original bodies, while Zouken takes bodies to reproduce the deteriorating blueprint of his lost original body that's stored in his equally deteriorating soul. Maybe because he didn't have a choice, maybe because his bug magecraft made this his natural avenue for immortality, or maybe he just thought being a vampire was an even worse deal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And well, part of vampire creation is having their souls stuck in their corpses in the first place.

  2. #146982
    love warrior <3 world-0 the god of world-0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the god of world-0 View Post
    Why Twilight Survivor doesn't have a rank in prillya?
    No takers?


    here is a list of my servant sheets(new and improved format for my servant sheets)

  3. #146983
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    The difference is that Dead Apostles take in foreign DNA to reconstruct their original bodies, while Zouken takes bodies to reproduce the deteriorating blueprint of his lost original body that's stored in his equally deteriorating soul. Maybe because he didn't have a choice, maybe because his bug magecraft made this his natural avenue for immortality, or maybe he just thought being a vampire was an even worse deal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And well, part of vampire creation is having their souls stuck in their corpses in the first place.
    Maybe it comes back to his original goal of "saving the world" Amakusa style by casting heavens feel on the planet. Maybe it doesnt work on DA's so he chose this immortality cuz it doesnt come with the drawbacks of being not human or anti-history like DA's

    Or we should take the
    I chose this method to prolong my life forever while retaining my humility
    more literally and he did it to himself for the sake of never forgetting his own mortality, never forget why he's trying to Heavens feel the world. And when he lost sight of his goal,it all became about fixing his "mistake"
    Last edited by madarra; March 27th, 2020 at 10:24 PM.

  4. #146984
    Gorgeous~! Happy~! Elegant~! Bobin's Avatar
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    I see, thanks for all the answers.

    It always seemed strange to me that in the pursuit of immortality beyond human limits there's always this ever present possibility of transitioning into a flesh-eating zombie/vampire if certain conditions were to be fulfilled even though those qualities might not be desirable.

    Like, supposedly it's an actual issue since Kerry's dad was trying to find a way around it, unless I'm reading this wrong.

    "…Dad, why would you investigate the Dead Apostles?"


    "Of course that’s not my true intention. However, being the research of us, the Emiya family, we should seek it no matter how far it seems. I have to come up with a solution for aging, at least before your generation. The flesh, shackled with the destiny of death, is really too far away from the 'root'."


    Shirley’s pitiful sight that he saw under the light of the moon once again appeared before Kiritsugu.


    "Dad... would you eventually turn me into that shape too?"


    "Nonsense. Someone who cannot control the vampiric urges and becomes a Dead Apostle is a failure... I told Shirley this a long time ago. Looks like the results of this experiment isn’t as good as I thought it’d be. I’d have to start from the basics and modify my theories again."
    So another question. Why is that? Becoming an undead creature of the night is an assumed outcome kind of thing?
    Last edited by Bobin; March 28th, 2020 at 02:10 AM.
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  5. #146985
    屍食鬼 Ghoul
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinetree View Post
    He means it's a coincidence in the sense that they're not red for the same reason Gil's are. Them being accurate to IRL myth isn't really relevant.
    It's still pretty cool though, thanks for the factoid.
    Ah. Okay, I see what youíre saying. Thanks for clearing that up, pinetree. I was under the impression Zork Knight was trying to figure out if there was any reason behind the red aesthetic of Cuís eyes, regardless of whether it was an in-universe or out-of-universe reason. Let me put what I said earlier another way, then, to clear up any confusion I mightíve caused: chances are Cuís eyes are red for a reason, but, unlike Gilgamesh, that reason comes from Cuís mythos rather than Nasu-lore (i.e. itís a fact he had red/ruby eyes in life). Is it an inconsistency in the design process in that one comes from the source whereas the other comes from an original idea? Sure, but Fate has never had a universal standard with regards to the design process, now, has it?

  6. #146986
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Given that reality marbles replace the world, should they technically be considered anti world NPs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
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  7. #146987
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    Given that reality marbles replace the world, should they technically be considered anti world NPs?
    They're bounded fields so they really should be bounded field NPs
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  8. #146988
    死徒 Dead Apostle AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    They're bounded fields so they really should be bounded field NPs
    Don't they vary anyway in the end, depending on the RM?

  9. #146989
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    They're bounded fields so they really should be bounded field NPs
    Why not both?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  10. #146990
    死徒 Dead Apostle AAM1232's Avatar
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    Well Worlds in Nasu aren't really bounded fields.

  11. #146991
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Don't they vary anyway in the end, depending on the RM?
    all RMs are bounded fields, 固有結界
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    Ugh cokesakto no no no
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    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
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    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.
    Heaven's Feel Manga Archive

  12. #146992
    At Least a Human Being falseCeilings's Avatar
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    So, how important is Gil as a figure in Fate/ humanity? Would HSs exist without him, or did he make their existence possible?

    He's obviously important in the sense that he broke humanity and Gods apart for good. He also appointed himself as the judge of humanity and seems pretty serious about this role - he mentions somewhere in Babylonia that he'll be there to judge humanity as long as it persists (or something to that extent). I think in CCC he mentions following humanity's story all the way until it reaches the stars (through clairvoyance).

    Is he part of why the human order is strong in Fate/ worlds, as opposed to some other type-moon settings? The two things at least don't seem completely unrelated. Merlin speaks of himself and Gil as beings tied to humanity in some way. Gil being the one to separate it from Gods and judge it, with Merlin looking over it until the end of the planet. Are these merely poetic descriptions?

  13. #146993
    Gil and Sumer as a whole got kinda sidelined with the introduction of Solomon and Nasu's revised AoG timeline. Now the big figures for ending AoG are Sefar and Solomon with Gil being only really relevant to his region.

  14. #146994
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CO9p5JMGv!p9 View Post
    Gil and Sumer as a whole got kinda sidelined with the introduction of Solomon and Nasu's revised AoG timeline. Now the big figures for ending AoG are Sefar and Solomon with Gil being only really relevant to his region.
    Errr no?
    The AOG timeline has three giant plot points now: Opportunity, Parting, and Decline.
    Decline is Sefar.
    Parting is Gil.
    Opportunity happened in 700 BC.

    3:50
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  15. #146995
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    And Opportunity is not even during Solomon's lifetime but after, might be related to LB7. Solomon's death is what marks the beginning of the end for AoG, then comes the Opportunity. He contributed to the Parting period basically.


    まかせておきなさい、魔王様!

  16. #146996
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Zork Knight's Avatar
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    Solomon's thing was not ending the Age of Gods but instead letting people do Magecraft without relying on gods

    Is there still no hint of what caused the Opportunity phase?

  17. #146997
    The Wolf King Lobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork Knight View Post
    Is there still no hint of what caused the Opportunity phase?
    Nope, as Lily Emilio said LB7 might had something to do with that. That theory is based on thinking Da Vinci's speech about the end of the AoG on Babylonia was foreshadowing for stuff to talk about on part 2 and LB7 is the only Lostbelt with a censored BC date. After all, the other dates do correspond to the Babylonia singularity (Parting), LB5 (Decline) and LB6 (End of Ether).
    Other popular theories I've seen based on the date alone are the founding of Rome or the reign of Japan's first emperor (that puts an end to their AoG on IRL myths)

  18. #146998
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Well Worlds in Nasu aren't really bounded fields.
    you sure about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  19. #146999
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork Knight View Post

    Is there still no hint of what caused the Opportunity phase?
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Several dates had been proposed by ancient authorities, and Dionysius of Halicarnassus records these: The Greek historian Timaeus, one of the first to write a history to include the Romans, stated that Rome was founded in the 38th year prior to the first Olympiad, or 814/3 BC; Quintus Fabius Pictor, the first Roman to write the history of his people, in Greek, stated Rome was founded in the first year of the eighth Olympiad, or 748/7 BC; Lucius Cincius Alimentus claimed Rome was founded in the fourth year of the twelfth Olympiad, or 729/8 BC; and Cato the Elder calculated that Rome was founded 432 years after the Trojan War, which Dionysius states was equivalent to the first year of the seventh Olympiad, or 752/1 BC.[13] Dionysius himself provided calculations showing that Rome was founded in 751 BC, starting with the Battle of the Allia, which he dated to the first year of the ninety-eighth Olympiad, 388/7 BC, then added 120 years to reach the date of the first consuls, Junius Brutus and Tarquinius Collatinus, 508/7 BC, then added the combined total of the reigns of the Kings of Rome (244 years) to arrive at his own date, 751 BC.[14] Even the official Fasti Capitolini offers its own date, 752 BC.

    The most familiar date given for the foundation of Rome, 753 BC, was derived by the Roman antiquarian Titus Pomponius Atticus, and adopted by Marcus Terentius Varro, having become part of what has come to be known as the Varronian chronology.[15] An anecdote in Plutarch where the astrologer Lucius Tarrutius of Firmum provides an argument based on a non-existent eclipse and other erroneous astronomical details that Rome was founded in 753 BC suggests that this had become the most commonly accepted date.[16] Through its use by the third-century writer Censorinus, whose De Die Natali was the ultimate influence of Joseph Justus Scaliger's work to establish a scientific basis of ancient chronology, it became familiar.[16]
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  20. #147000
    The Greatest Cool Reign's Avatar
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    They'll reveal it alongside the release of Grand Lancer Romulus.
    I believe.

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