Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Byegod]

Anyone got the magic vs science comparisons in all of fate/nasu

I only recall two and there kinda contradictory, rin says magic and science are good at different things while whats her face in KnK says science is better

[Tenshi]

"Hey. I'm a proper modern magus, you know. There are plenty of things we can't do, and we're obviously no match for modern weapons. Thanks to twentieth century warfare pushing things forward, you guys finally have us outgunned. "

I think there must be other recent material talking about it, although I don't see myself in a position to mention it further than this.

My understanding to be honest, and based on what is said in Garan no Dou as well, is that Magecraft and Science are analogous in the idea of their causality, but they are polar opposites on which they are based.


Science has advanced a few steps ahead of Magecraft, so eventually the deeds caused by Magecraft that on a smaller scale defy the Laws of Physics, will be able to be reproduced by science. While the effects of Science cannot be achieved by Magecraft anymore, since science has advanced further.


I may have misinterpreted the whole idea, but at least it is as far as I understand.

[Byegod]

I think there must be other recent material talking about it, although I don't see myself in a position to mention it further than this.

My understanding to be honest, and based on what is said in Garan no Dou as well, is that Magecraft and Science are analogous in the idea of their causality, but they are polar opposites on which they are based.


Science has advanced a few steps ahead of Magecraft, so eventually the deeds caused by Magecraft that on a smaller scale defy the Laws of Physics, will be able to be reproduced by science. While the effects of Science cannot be achieved by Magecraft anymore, since science has advanced further.


I may have misinterpreted the whole idea, but at least it is as far as I understand.

Feels like a weird comparison since science has to work with physics while if magic can defy it why wouldnt it be superior

Plus the whole... 'most of the laws of reality are just made up by the human order stuff' which just makes me think science is just magic agreed upon by the masses

[TwilightsCall]

Because as science advances, it reduces the scope of what magecraft can do.

Science is based on investigation, learning, and discovery. Magecraft is based on Mystery and secret traditions. As science expands and "explains" more of the world, there is less and less room for Mystery, and thus less and less room for magecraft to operate. It's basically a battle magecraft is destined to lose, since you can always learn new things about the world, but you can't reclaim Mystery once it's been revealed.

"Magic agreed upon by the masses" is actually Religion in the Nasuverse, not science. Do you have a source for "most laws of reality are made up by the human order?" It sounds like something that's close enough to be true to be convincing while still being completely wrong, but...given the current state of the Nasuverse, I can't entirely dismiss it either lol

[the god of world-0]

Well, just because Magecraft (not magic, magic is special) can defy some laws of physics, they still have their own sets of rules. A magus can't just say bibbidi bobbidi boo and make anything they want.
Anyway, you are focusing way too much on method over the result. The best example is "why spend years learning how to shoot a fireball when you can just use a flamethrower?"

[Byegod]

Because as science advances, it reduces the scope of what magecraft can do.

Science is based on investigation, learning, and discovery. Magecraft is based on Mystery and secret traditions. As science expands and "explains" more of the world, there is less and less room for Mystery, and thus less and less room for magecraft to operate. It's basically a battle magecraft is destined to lose, since you can always learn new things about the world, but you can't reclaim Mystery once it's been revealed.

"Magic agreed upon by the masses" is actually Religion in the Nasuverse, not science. Do you have a source for "most laws of reality are made up by the human order?" It sounds like something that's close enough to be true to be convincing while still being completely wrong, but...given the current state of the Nasuverse, I can't entirely dismiss it either lol

I cant point but i remember shit like laws change based on era, i may be mixing up theorycrafting and lore in mind but the laws are mutable.

Honestly im not even sure how mystery works nowadays what with beasts, reuqiems general existence, robot gods...

Well, just because Magecraft (not magic, magic is special) can defy some laws of physics, they still have their own sets of rules. A magus can't just say bibbidi bobbidi boo and make anything they want.
Anyway, you are focusing way too much on method over the result. The best example is "why spend years learning how to shoot a fireball when you can just use a flamethrower?"

Cause current science can make portals, dimensional spaces, create matter temporarily, extend life into centuries, those are all things modern magi have been shown capable of as "results"

EDIT: hasnt nasu shifted to like magic must merge with science based on extra and such?

[the god of world-0]

I cant point but i remember shit like laws change based on era, i may be mixing up theorycrafting and lore in mind but the laws are mutable.

Honestly im not even sure how mystery works nowadays what with beasts, reuqiems general existence, robot gods...





Cause current science can make portals, dimensional spaces, create matter temporarily, extend life into centuries, those are all things modern magi have been shown capable of as "results"

Magecraft can't do Interdimensional travel, which is specifically said to fall under the second magic. Temporary creation of matter is just using Mana (a material) to make things, and it will disappear afterward anyway. They Rin even says outright that projection is useless.

[Byegod]

Magecraft can't do Interdimensional travel, which is specifically said to fall under the second magic. Temporary creation of matter is just using Mana (a material) to make things, and it will disappear afterward anyway. They Rin even says outright that projection is useless.

I was referring to the folded space in case files anime, the portal we see heartless use to summon the forest child.

Can science do those, yes or no?

[pinetree]

The point is that science will be able to do those. Magecraft is a thing of the past and science is the way to the future.

[Byegod]

The point is that science will be able to do those. Magecraft is a thing of the past and science is the way to the future.

Is it even science when it's just magitech using circuits and soul stuff? since that seems to be the future in every timeline.

Especially when beasts use spiritrons like goetia

[the god of world-0]

Heartless is someone unnatural even by Magi standards. He can only do that because his heart was stolen by fairies, and he is noted to be above modern magecraft.
So no, science can't, but apparently neither does magic anymore.

[Byegod]

Heartless is someone unnatural even by Magi standards. He can only do that because his heart was stolen by fairies, and he is noted to be above modern magecraft.
So no, science can't, but apparently neither does magic anymore.

It's such a weird comparison based on what we can see, sure you can make a argument for a basic fireball or say rins dumb magecraft involving gemstones but when it comes to a lot of other things it feels like the only way around it in nasu is just magitech which instead of science being better is just admitting science needs magic, ado edem, mooncell, sefar, atlas, robogods all are magitech and all notable still use mana or something like it such as grain.

Do you guys get my train of thought here? (can you elaborate on what you mean as 'but apparently neither does magic anymore.')

I'm sorry if im being stupid.

[the god of world-0]

If you want to compare science amd magic, you need to use the regular average of the two. Use something like Rin or Caules.

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Again, you are getting Magecraft and Magic mix up, they are not the same thing. Science has an advantage against Magecraft, but Magic is specifically noted to be "what science can't replicate yet".

[Byegod]

If you want to compare science amd magic, you need to use the regular average of the two. Use something like Rin or Caules.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, you are getting Magecraft and Magic mix up, they are not the same thing. Science has an advantage against Magecraft, but Magic is specifically noted to be "what science can't replicate yet".

Didnt know zouken was a magic user.

I'm not mixing them up, i know the definition.

Also rin and caules are not on the same level you know that right?

[the god of world-0]

Didnt know zouken was a magic user.

I'm not mixing them up, i know the definition.

Also rin and caules are not on the same level you know that right?

Again, exceptional cases, Zouken is very far removed from the norm (and also barely alive and probably doesn't even counts as a human).
I know Rin and Caules don't aren't the same, but they are on the spectrum. Another example would be: in Case files, heartless and gray can do absurd things because of their absurd circumstances, but who else in the cast can reach that high?

[Herod]

Feels like a weird comparison since science has to work with physics while if magic can defy it why wouldnt it be superior

Plus the whole... 'most of the laws of reality are just made up by the human order stuff' which just makes me think science is just magic agreed upon by the masses

　Magecraft is the pursuit of history,
　Of the deeds of man, and the great circle of life.
　However, Magic is the providence of a god beyond the heavens.
　How could anyone on this earth call something that belongs to neither man nor the planet a miracle?
　It is an indisputable crime.
　Magic is the enemy of humanity itself.

[pinetree]

Is it even science when it's just magitech using circuits and soul stuff? since that seems to be the future in every timeline.

Especially when beasts use spiritrons like goetia

But we haven't seen anything beyond 2020 in a regular timeline. Extra is a dead world whose only remaining choice is the Mooncell, Requiem was completely changed after their Holy Grail War.

[Byegod]

But we haven't seen anything beyond 2020 in a regular timeline. Extra is a dead world whose only remaining choice is the Mooncell, Requiem was completely changed after their Holy Grail War.

True but every timeline we have seen always has magitech still, i dont see how even a 'proper future' isnt supposed to have it.

Actually is there any explanation on mystery in requiem?

[pinetree]

None, at least not in the first volume.

[the god of world-0]

"What happened to the world?" Is one of the central mysteries of Requiem, I wouldn't count on it been revealed so soon.