Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Holiday]

I thought that Goetia's time shennanigans weren't "time travel" in the sense that he travels back to a prior point in the timeline, but "large-scale time reversal," ie. Goetia stays the same while everything else is rewound until it reaches a prior state. Hence why he needed such a huge amount of energy to pull it off.

The most meaningful difference I can see between "I move and the timeline is fixed" and "I am fixed and the timeline moves" is how it would affect stuff like branching timelines.

[Kamera]

If the pruning phenomena prevents End of History scenarios, which is checked once every 100 years, does that mean 80 years more of Liberal Democracy will make [this] timeline get pruned as well?

[TwilightsCall]

there is nothing inherently 'wrong' with 'pruning'

I would fundamentally disagree with this.

I think the mechanism in pruning is inherently and fundamentally flawed to a degree it detracts from the story. In a world as robustly detailed as the Nasuverse it has been totally undeveloped, not as a compelling mystery to be wondered at but as a meta-thorn that serves either no discernible purpose or a self-contradictory one, with not enough backing detail to make a case for either.

That is not to say that a bad/flawed idea can't be used to write an interesting and compelling story - your example with EMIYA being a good...example. But that doesn't make the idea itself any better.

We could think through to the logical conclusions of Shirou being able to project a clone of himself because "his origin is Sword" and his Reality Marble reproduces swords so therefore he can reproduce himself, thus leading to a world in which there are an infinite number of Shirous swamping the planet, expanding in number exponentially as each clone then begins making clones of themselves, prompting Gaia to freak out and start Notes early, but when the Types come oh no the Shirou clones trace the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and kill all of them, thus beginning Shirou's conquest of the solar system because now he can trace the abilities of the 9 types. You might even be able to convince me that the story would be entertaining to read, and I wholeheartedly believe there are authors on this site that could make the story worth reading.

But it's still a bad idea.

[Dullahan]

when i say 'inherently' i am thinking in a very abstract sense, i.e., that 'pruning', if you knew nothing of TM and encountered only a single dictionary entry telling you about it, has nothing to it on that level which makes it a 'bad' idea in any meaningful way. how it interacts when developed - to whatever degree - within the context of the 'robust detail' of the nasuverse, and in particular how it interferes with the formation of artistic theses in narratives 'set' within the nasuverse, is another question (the conclusion to which I broadly agree with you on), but does not strictly bear on what is 'inherent' to the simple idea of pruning.

[Mementore]

This raises the question if pruning is limited to the planet, or only the human order, and if aliens are affected by it.

Aliens not being affected by it would even explain why Zelretch had to fight Brunestud.

By the way, isn't what the Alien God did similar to the Rewriting of Records (even if we don't know anything about it) of the Second Magic?

[Comun]

So far, the main narrative purpose of pruning is enabling the audience to spend 5 FGO chapters believing that Lostbelts were real pruned timelines instead of mage fanfic. I personally don't care either way, but I can definitely see the problem in having such a, for a lack of a better word, world-changing lore element exist just as a red herring.


In a more abstract level, pruning is relevant because the Crypters truly believe Lostbelts are pruned timelines, aside from Kirsch and Ophelia eventually suspecting otherwise (and Daybit most likely having already figured everything out because he's Daybit). Pruning is the bad event that ties to the group's theme of second chances. Crypters are dead people who were given a second chance in life tied to their role of giving a second chance to a dead world, by somehow solving its stalemate and having it replace Pan Human History once its game state starts moving again. In that case, pruning is not just a red herring, but also an afterthought plot device, as the relevant part of it dead world awaiting a second chance exists, not the fact worlds can die.

[Byegod]

I can't help but feel like pruning, as a Nasuverse concept, is stupid. It's unnecessary, unjustified, unexplained, and adds nothing of value to the setting. All it serves to do is create a vague, nebulous bogeyman that hides behind the actual antagonist to "raise the stakes," as if they needed any raising if the villain was already capable of doing something impressive enough to justify the pruning in the first place.

The only way I can think of justifying it at all is as an internal mechanism of the Moon Cell, which makes it effectively a non-issue for the vast majority of the setting.

Change my mind.

Can you elaborate more on why its bad? i have my own reasons like the explanation felt trite and didnt make much sense, it feels too pseudo philosophical with nothing good coming from it.
What else?

Like i always felt like it did the opposite and in of itself creates a form of stagnation and also cucks humanity out of any true happy ending that nasu sometimes goes on about

[Rafflesiac]

because, if CG summoning occurs for the same reason pruning does, to keep humanity within a certain 'range' on the spectrum of outcomes - then we must admit the possibility that CGs are also summoned to prevent things from getting too good

Emiya did Kennedy, LHO was an MA fall guy

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I wonder if Nasu always intended CGs to be losers or if he just wanted them to be losers during Grail Wars, since Kerry gets his shit kicked in by Chaldea multiple times during FAZO where he's ostensibly the only thing standing between a timeline and utter destruction. Do they only get enough power for the task (before random goons show up)? Are they Wii U/3DS Ones?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I personally don't see much wrong with pruning in the context of the Nasuverse because Nasu seems to view progress as paramount, and any outcome without progress is a dead end that must be avoided.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Also, I thought the true purpose of the Umbral Star was to manually prune stuff?

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I could be very wrong.

[Mementore]

Also, I thought the true purpose of the Umbral Star was to manually prune stuff?

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I could be very wrong.

The Umbral Star, if I remember well, actually wants to "collect" civilizations, and studies them by destroying them.

[TwilightsCall]

Can you elaborate more on why its bad? i have my own reasons like the explanation felt trite and didnt make much sense, it feels too pseudo philosophical with nothing good coming from it.
What else?

Like i always felt like it did the opposite and in of itself creates a form of stagnation and also cucks humanity out of any true happy ending that nasu sometimes goes on about

My gut reason for not liking it as an idea is that where the universe only preserves timelines that will continue to "progress," but the moment any timeline actually reaches the end of that "progression" it's immediately wiped out. It's a no-win state that robs the progress it is trying to create of any meaning.

There are a bunch of more detail-oriented reasons why I don't like it as well (example: it implies the multiverse has a finite pool of energy to be spent on supporting worlds, which directly contradicts what we are told about the multiverse during HF in the Gem Sword scene, and would be a questionable claim regardless; it seems to be an entirely human-centered phenomenon but would impact all other life in the universe; etc) but that's the main reason I personally don't like it.

I've spent an awful lot more time than I'd care to admit going over Material entries and bits of lore from games (that I've never even played) to try and make a sensible interpretation of it, but in the end the only conclusion I could reach is that culling is an action the Moon Cell takes (effectively, it stops observing/recording worlds when it can predict their futures perfectly with it's own processing power), not something that happens in the real world. But that doesn't mesh very well with the whole Lostbelts situation (unless surprise mega-twist, Grand Order took place in the Moon Cell all along), so I'm less confident in that theory than I was before.

[fumei]

I've spent an awful lot more time than I'd care to admit going over Material entries and bits of lore from games (that I've never even played) to try and make a sensible interpretation of it, but in the end the only conclusion I could reach is that culling is an action the Moon Cell takes (effectively, it stops observing/recording worlds when it can predict their futures perfectly with it's own processing power), not something that happens in the real world. But that doesn't mesh very well with the whole Lostbelts situation (unless surprise mega-twist, Grand Order took place in the Moon Cell all along), so I'm less confident in that theory than I was before.

Alaya governs pruning.

[Rafflesiac]

That makes humans a special kind of masochist.

[Kamera]

Twice did hack Alaya after all

[Byegod]

My gut reason for not liking it as an idea is that where the universe only preserves timelines that will continue to "progress," but the moment any timeline actually reaches the end of that "progression" it's immediately wiped out. It's a no-win state that robs the progress it is trying to create of any meaning.

There are a bunch of more detail-oriented reasons why I don't like it as well (example: it implies the multiverse has a finite pool of energy to be spent on supporting worlds, which directly contradicts what we are told about the multiverse during HF in the Gem Sword scene, and would be a questionable claim regardless; it seems to be an entirely human-centered phenomenon but would impact all other life in the universe; etc) but that's the main reason I personally don't like it.

I've spent an awful lot more time than I'd care to admit going over Material entries and bits of lore from games (that I've never even played) to try and make a sensible interpretation of it, but in the end the only conclusion I could reach is that culling is an action the Moon Cell takes (effectively, it stops observing/recording worlds when it can predict their futures perfectly with it's own processing power), not something that happens in the real world. But that doesn't mesh very well with the whole Lostbelts situation (unless surprise mega-twist, Grand Order took place in the Moon Cell all along), so I'm less confident in that theory than I was before.

Ah, thats what i sorta meant, in that eventually progression ends, which makes me think nasu didnt really think it through

[Leftovers]

when i say 'inherently' i am thinking in a very abstract sense, i.e., that 'pruning', if you knew nothing of TM and encountered only a single dictionary entry telling you about it, has nothing to it on that level which makes it a 'bad' idea in any meaningful way.

Yeah the Sixth was pretty cool, wasn't it.

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Also the collective unconscious of one species on one planet managing its own history and progress is one thing, but whoever figures out how precisely that extrapolates to managing the distribution of all energy across an entire world/timeline wins lovely prizes.

[fumei]

Maybe real-life is a no-win game and the only reason we're still here is because all we can do is progress

[Leftovers]

Spoiler:

Quantum Time lock
Spiritron record anchoring band
The timing that occurs at constant intervals for fixing the averages of events.
Our universe allows for countless possibilities and creates many parallels worlds and histories with different developments.
But as the life of the universe would be exhausted if this takes place without limit, certain worlds (routes) that have strayed from the strongest stable routes are culled to prevent energy from being needlessly expended.


The Moon Cell has come to the conclusion that the universe we perceive of, which should be unstable, is being stabilized across the present, past, and future by this culling process and by quantum time locks.


It would be easiest to picture this as cutting off unnecessary branches from the great tree of time which if left to its own devices would branch out infinitely, always leaving just the trunk.


The history which had been made into a time lock will be immovable to interference from the past and future, and events in time locks will not fluctuate no matter what.


Even if someone goes further back in the past than a time lock and tries to change history, history will be forcibly restored once it reaches the lock.


In a universe with quantum time locks, the outcome that is registered in an quantum time lock will not change.
A time traveler can only alter the process by which it happens.


For example, let's say the outcome of Britain being destroyed is fixed.
Even if someone travels back in time and succeeds in making Britain prosper, ending war, bringing happiness unto everyone, the moment history enters the time lock the outcome of Britain being destroyed will happen.


It might be possible to save some number of people, but the great motion of human history cannot be undone.


These are the quantum time locks, what are called the human order foundation in the world of magic.


If we turn what was said around, it could be possible to deny human history from its foundations by destroying a quantum time lock through some great feat, but even with that method the most that could be done is deny human history beyond the destroyed quantum time lock.


The ones who can determine the next coming quantum time lock are those living in the era. Past and future intervention cannot affect the quantum time lock.


Archimedes' objective in Extella was to create an outcome in which the Moon Cell was destroyed before the next quantum time lock and make a base world that would start from that precondition.


While it is normally not something that could happen, to do that Archimedes continued to shift across worlds.


If Archimedes were to completely shut down the Moon Cell before the setting of the next quantum time lock from his subjective perspective, he would achieve victory.


However, even if there were outcomes where Archimedes could have won he couldn't reach a route where the Moon Cell was completely shut down.


While he was occupied with that, the protagonist proved the route of a world that was average with the most potential to grow, and the quantum time lock was decided.


Archimedes' machinations went up in smoke.


Incidentally, quantum time lock A would be at the beginning of Extella where the protagonist entered the stone chamber of the titan with Archimedes and was split into multiple parts and quantum time lock B would be the True Nero route ending.
No matter what Archimedes does there, the outcome has already been decided.

Spoiler:

Compiled Events and Pruned Events
The concept of the operation of parallel worlds in the Fate EX series.

It’s very easy to think of this in terms of compiled events being the main routes and pruned events being bad end routes.

Pruned events, however, are simply specialized worlds that have deviated too much from the main route and as a result have lost many possibilities to branch into, so they aren't necessarily bad.

If we had to put it in terms of good and bad though, a good flow is a flow ripe with possibilities that will continue to produce even more variations, and a bad flow is a one-way flow that has become so radical that it’s no longer able to alter its path.

It is thought that among pruned events there have been ideal worlds that are more advanced than any of the worlds in the compiled events and full of hope and happiness.

However, as these worlds are completed and finished as they are, there is no reason to see them to the end, and once the conditions for the ideal world have been established, these worlds are pruned.

The universe does not use energy for obvious outcomes.

The universe continues to expand for the sake of a future that no one can know of yet, no matter how much of a higher dimensional being it is.

To digress, if we were to use Melty Blood as an example, the Tatari routes are compiled events and the Tohno family Kohaku Musou routes are pruned events.

Compiled Events and Pruned Events
The concept of the operation of parallel worlds in the Fate EX series.

deep-fried thonk

[Herod]

My gut reason for not liking it as an idea is that where the universe only preserves timelines that will continue to "progress," but the moment any timeline actually reaches the end of that "progression" it's immediately wiped out. It's a no-win state that robs the progress it is trying to create of any meaning.

It's the same old " A world without conflict is dead. If things aren't moving, all they do is rot." from FSN. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Yeah the Sixth was pretty cool, wasn't it.

The fact that dead-end timelines are pruned just make the Sixth MORE dreadful, not less. It means that sooner or later all ​of the timelines will be pruned.