I think Nasu will make all mahou users OCs.
I think Nasu will make all mahou users OCs.
I'm fairly certain Beryl's mom said that she was her own mothers, so it's likely that witches normally propagate akin to how fairies in LB Britain and possibly PHH propagate, by a successor inheriting their purpose and most of their attributes. I do agree about the witch x human stuff.
Originally Posted by Deathhappens
Maybe its just that when Mahoyo ends plus some 20 or more years after said ending to account for the distance between original Mahoyo in like the 70s 80s to most of the rest of the Nasuverse being 90's 00s, Alice just isnt looking so great
Lol, I don't think the First has anything to do with Jesus.
Nasu has been baiting there is a relationship between witches and the First.
In Mahoyo, Alice's Ploys were said to blur the lines between magecraft and Magic. Of course most of Alice's magecraft were related to creation and materialization. There was also some baiting and insinuation between the First and Flat Snark.
The name of the Clock Tower departments were all related to the founding houses, so we know this Yumina person for sure existed in the Association at some point.
"Yumina" is also Alice's witchcraft system.
Besides the timing, there's really no ties between Jesus and the First, lol.
I guess it is theoretically possible for Alice to be the heir of the First, given the breadcrumb trail. The ultimate fate of the characters in Mahoyo remains unknown. Who knows, Alice may become sealed, nearly killed, or trapped by the end of the trilogy.
Last edited by Araya's Dry Cleaner; September 6th, 2021 at 07:08 PM.
Yes, I too think this may be a possible direction that the plot may take.
Or Alice caught HIV in the 80's and is now dying of AIDS.
I think we already past the baiting phase. Our actual definition of witch is "supernatural being related to the completion of First Magic".
That is what I am getting at, sorry if I did not phrase it precisely.
The point is that Nasu is putting up all sorts of signs that Yumina the witch was the creator of the First, without saying she created the First.
I don't know how you get Jesus into this.
The date in which True Ether disappeared and the completion of the First Magic.
Again that is not convincing though.
If you go through the time line, True Ether actually started to thin at 960 BC.
The user of the First was born 0 AD, sure.
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It seems the First was fully realized around 20 AD, with the proof of the Fifth Imaginary Element that revolutionized magecraft. This would coincide with the Mahoyo description of "The First changed everything".
Did Jesus do anything that could be interpreted as this at 20 years old?
When we first learned about the 0AD thing and everyone logically concluded Jesus, the assumption of some of us was the First's deal being "denial of nothingness" (said in HA I think?) was how he created bread and fish from nothing.
After LB6 talked about witches so closely tied to the First though I don't know if there's much room for it being Jesus anymore.
There's apocryphal tests of Jesus' childhood, and his ministry started at age 30. Everything in-between...The "lost years of Jesus" concept is usually encountered in esoteric literature (where it at times also refers to his possible post-crucifixion activities) but is not commonly used in scholarly literature since it is assumed that Jesus was probably working as a carpenter in Galilee, at least some of the time with Joseph, from the age of 12 to 29.
The First Magician was born on the night BC shifted to AD and the Third Magician also died on the night BC shifted to AD. That sure was a special moment, or maybe these two Magicians were related somehow.
I really don't think he is.
This tells us the original user, logically the one mentioned to have been born at the beginning of AD, is dead, and that the heir is alive now. It makes no sense for HF3 Q&A to subsequently go:First True Magic
One of the oldest True Magics but the details about it are unknown. What it involves appears to be common knowledge to some magi of privileged rank. The user of the First has already passed away, but it is said that the person that would be his heir [the descendant or disciple] is still alive, barely.
only for that to be some previous user of the First that's no longer relevant (outside of the Bartholomei family thinking only they are worthy of reverence, rather than the heir). On top of this, it's a constant pattern of Nasu's to bring stuff up in mats/Q&As before they become relevant elsewhere.Q: Is Zelretch's name that well known?
Nasu: Old bloodlines teach their children his name, and even young families have heard that "in the Clock Tower the great magician who led the World of Magecraft into battle long ago is still alive". Those who rise to the rank of Cause may eventually hear of another Magician by the name of Yumina.
In my opinion, the signs Nasu are putting up point way more to Yumina being the CURRENT user of the First, not the creator of it. Even more so if you consider Yumina a witch (something that's technically never been stated), since we know witches were those "involved with the creation of the First", and if a witch was also the one to use it and not just be involved with its making, then you'd suspect it would also hint at that at least in some aspect.
I've actually been looking into the topic recently and have a feeling the first magician was probably the other guy whose name starts with J and ends in S; Judas. The 1st being tied to witches is pretty anti-Christian, and they did the parallels with 'Christianity' and 'witches' in Salem. And being told that the original 1st magician is dead is a bit...risky if it was supposed to be Jesus. Sure it wouldn't be the only work to have him die and not rise from the dead, but I don't think they want to bring that type of controversy.
Witches are said to be those that commune with the devil, and Judas was said to be possessed by the devil himself. Furthermore if the 1st was really something Jesus did, then you would think the Church would be teaching it to all their staff as well, and wouldn't have gotten something like that so fundamentally wrong.
Anyway we don't know Judas' birth year, but we can presume it was sometime around Jesus'. But he is often given a birthday; April 1st, April Fool's day. This is because it is seen as the 'day of untrustworthiness'. But there's an interesting reason for how April Fools day started:
Furthermore, the Hebrew calendar, the calendar they would have also been using during the time of Jesus, also starts around that time. Their first month was Nisan, which started middle of march usually and went to middle of April, but the celebrations for the start of the year tended to be about two weeks, so they actually got down to proper work around the middle of Nisan which is almost exactly the start of April by the Gregorian calendar.Some historians speculate that April Fools’ Day dates back to 1582, when France switched from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar, as called for by the Council of Trent in 1563. People who were slow to get the news or failed to recognize that the start of the new year had moved to January 1 and continued to celebrate it during the last week of March through April 1 became the butt of jokes and hoaxes.
The quote that the 1st magician was born the night it crossed over from BC to AD doesn't say it was December 31st/January 1st night. That's just what we in the modern era think of it as.
Things connecting to Judas are also often seen as the basis for certain things regarding witches and vampires, both figures seen to have communed with the devil. Vampires hate the sunlight cause Judas hanged himself at dawn. Vampires hate silver as a reference to the 30 pieces of silver. And witches must be hanged since Judas hanged himself and many believed that they were basically doing the same offence; communing with the devil.
Furthermore from what we know of the 1st magic, it is presented as connecting to the Age of Gods, or the Fairies, with how it involves ether clumps and it was the ether in the atmosphere that was one of the key things in the AoG. Admittedly I'm not too familiar with how Ether and Ether clumps are different, but it sounds like they're connected. And many of the Ploys, the application of the 1st magic, most likely something akin to Zelretch's sword where someone who doesn't use the 2nd can still create and use it, without fully understanding the 2nd, are tied to Fairy Tales which are of course tied to Fairies. As opposed to Jesus and his dad who don't seem to want the AoG to return and instead want the opposite with mankind having a new and different relationship with God, one where he doesn't rule over them like the gods of old. And of course the name 'ploy' ties in to the idea of 'April fools'.
Then there's Beryl. The discarded lines have him being able to use a Ploy and of course his mother was a witch. He parallels Judas rather strongly, betraying the messiah figure that he followed (Wodime) much like Judas.
In the end, it seems to be just one big Ploy.
I was thinking Judas might be it because of the gnostic Gospels of Judas has Jesus confide in Judas alone the true nature of his incarnation and mission while the chud 12 Apostles are still hopelessly blind.
Maybe, but I kinda hope they don't go that way. The impression I get is that the first magic is pretty anti-Christian. There is the question of what exactly Jesus and his dad are, but I'm on the side that they're connected to the root, so wouldn't really need the 1st.
Also another thing I forgot to mention was how Tiamat's Sea of Life contains the ether clumps, and SoL is said to be similar to the Grail Mud like Beast 666 uses/is made up of. And Beast 666 is the first Beast of Revelation, generally seen as the anti-Christ, that is the exact opposite of Jesus.
Considering how the Nicene Church/many of the "Orthodox" church fathers viewed gnostic theology and their take on Jesus, I don't think it'd be out of the question for the Nasuverse Holy Church to keep this particular fact secret or at least not spread it in their own teachings.
Maybe. But with Gnostic stuff it's always the question of why they're hiding the truth, and the standard answers don't really work that well in the Nasuverse setting. Can't really say it was to protect Jesus' image when he did perform miracles. And can't really say it's to keep knowledge of the 1st hidden when magics largely seem to be impervious to mystery degradation (unless it's the EXTRA universe).
I suppose I'm just skeptical they'd go that way since the church isn't given a huge focus where that sort of thing would be better if they had a story that placed them in the center. Though they can always do that in the future I suppose.
The Church IRL has always acknowledged Jesus' miracles, but they all insist his miracles were not actually magic, but done via the grace of God. His miracles were real and supernatural, while magic is simply an accelerated natural phenomenon. They'd simply claim that Jesus' miracles are just that and have nothing to do with the First, while the mages continue to be deluded by Satan that they are performing magic akin to God's miracles.
Interestingly, that distinction between magic and miracles is the same as that between Magecraft and True Magic in the Nasuverse (another case of Nasu doing his research with RL mystic traditions). Depending on if you identify the Root with God (pretty questionable), miracles as the Church defines them would either be True Magic or a case of the same result reached by non-overlapping means. Presumably the Church maintains that true miracles not replicating any natural phenomena can only be the work of God, so the very existence of True Magic is kind of intrinsically a problem for them whether Jesus was a practitioner or not.
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