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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #153941
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    All examples I listed come from the same scene of Sheba explaining her lineage to Mata Hari. Salem chapter 5, first node.

  2. #153942
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    After looking at it, I think she was speaking about nature spirits in general.

    According to her demon gods, djinn, elementals and holy spirits are words that talk about the same thing, but I dont think she was saying that they're sub-species of each other.

    But more like how both Len and Arcueid in Tsukihime both fall under the umbrella of nature spirit, despite one being a demon and the other a fairy/elemental despite both being very different in nature.

  3. #153943
    Lie Like Vortigern Reign's Avatar
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    Just a few lines before that though Sheba uses djinn and Demon God interchangeably:

    Queen of Sheba: What I do have is human and Demon God blood running through my veins. So it's not that I'm not affected. It's that I affect others.
    Queen of Sheba: My father was human...But my mother was a djinn who came from the desert.
    Plus the FSF bit posted last page where Jester sees No Name Assassin's genies and then says "I can help you control even stronger ones like Solomon".

    If it weren't for those I'd be more inclined to agree with your interpretation.

  4. #153944
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Byegod's Avatar
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    I feel like one should see it like

    Nature spirit is the broad classification, like the concept of Eukrayotes, then further categories beings like invertebrates vs vertebrates?

  5. #153945
    How is it even viable for Velber to go around the universe destroying civilizations if the counterforce of any planet can just easily overpower them with their Aristoteles or Excalibur equivalent weaponry?

  6. #153946
    Drunk Anime Is The True Path. Mattias's Avatar
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    Wouldn't most planets not have a Cf since they have a Ultimate One instead? And sure an Aristole vs Velber would be a close fight it feels like the old question of one horse sized duck or a hundred duck sized horses. Eventually ones going to get a lucky shot in where you aren't looking. Or throw a candy cane at you.
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  7. #153947
    IIRC every planet has a counterforce equivalent that gives backup to their Aristoteles not unlike how Earth gives backup to Arcueid, Excalibur and Enkidu's Enuma Elish so they should be able to handle Velber pretty confidently.

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    Drunk Anime Is The True Path. Mattias's Avatar
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    The CF is the collective unconscious of Humanity with a priority to preserving humanity on a whole. IIRC most other planets only have the one Supreme being so there is no collective unconscious to speak of. There is a will of the planet, but given that in it's death throes all Gaia could do is ask for backup rather than anything to directly kill Humanity, they seem rather ineffectual. Or maybe Humanities, just that good/too much of a cockroach to even die properly. Either way, Planet's all talk, don't count on it for anything concrete.
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  9. #153949
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Also I reject the suggestion that this was somehow a weaker dragon. It was clearly supposed to be one of Nrvnqsr's stronger familiars/trump cards, he's a powerful Dead Apostle Ancestor and should be on servant level himself, and even familiars weaker than that were capable of keeping up with Arcueid, who even in her weakened state should be more than a match for a normal servant.
    A weak dragon is still stupidly strong. There's a reason killing dragons gets you up into the Throne of Heroes, it's just that the variance goes between great big flying fire breathing monster to holy shit Vortigern just changed the fucking weather by roaring and turned off Excalibur and Galatine.
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  10. #153950
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clown View Post
    How is it even viable for Velber to go around the universe destroying civilizations if the counterforce of any planet can just easily overpower them with their Aristoteles or Excalibur equivalent weaponry?
    No.

    Archimedes specifically said Velber is beyond the Counter Force. Sefar was just ONE of the MANY sentinels the Velber mothership stores in it. There are 2 more sentinels dropped in the Solar System. The main Velber entity pretty much just go by a planet, drop a sentinel and call it a day, if the sentinel does the job then good, if not they whatever. They return periodically to check and see if they need to send more forces, else they move on to destroy other civilizations.

    And idk why you think defeating Sefar was easy. Velber thought Sefar was enough to do the job, which she would have done it in theory, if it wasn't for the creation of Excalibur at the last minute, or Zeus did the fusion dance. If it could foresee the whole thing, it would simply throw several more sentinels instead of just Sefar. In Extraverse, taking over the Moon Cell and 3D printing Sefar onto the planet would have been absolutely terrifying since theorically more Sefar would be created with even adjustments to adapt to Excalibur should they need to using Moon Cell power. Luckily the Excaliblast on Earth stunned the one on the moon long enough for Moon Cell to seal her away. And it was also convenient that Moon Cell was not programmed to recognize and assist Velber despite coming from the exact same aliens for some reason.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also Earth is a special place in the first place. In the AoG it is supposed to be the center of the universe, and multiple different aliens landed on Earth to eventually assimilated into its system. Tis kind of special condition is not a common thing for most planets out there who will have to fight off Velber's sentinels, not to mention some might not have advanced enough lifeforms or technology to deal with the invasion.

  11. #153951
    Velber only targets civilizations anyway, she doesn't destroy planets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    No.
    Also Earth is a special place in the first place. In the AoG it is supposed to be the center of the universe, and multiple different aliens landed on Earth to eventually assimilated into its system. Tis kind of special condition is not a common thing for most planets out there who will have to fight off Velber's sentinels, not to mention some might not have advanced enough lifeforms or technology to deal with the invasion.
    That doesn't necessarily mean that the Earth is special compared to other planets. We just get that impression because the world where humans live is centered around Earth.

  12. #153952
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    How is something supposed to be the freaking center of the universe in the AoG not special? If anything, it became much much less special when the AoG ended. Going from "all things in the universe revolves around me" in AoG to "just another planet in the vast universe" when humans take over is a massive downgrade.

  13. #153953
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    I want a source on this one, because I find really hard to believe that so many Outer Gods failed to notice such a central and important planet before Raum sent his cosmic smoke signal.

  14. #153954
    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    How is something supposed to be the freaking center of the universe in the AoG not special? If anything, it became much much less special when the AoG ended. Going from "all things in the universe revolves around me" in AoG to "just another planet in the vast universe" when humans take over is a massive downgrade.
    Anything can be called the center of the universe from one's own point of view. The fact that it stops being called that just shows the evolution of human ideas that became less centered on the idea on Earth being the center of the universe.
    Aliens living in other planets may have their own universes anyway where their planet is at the center with their version of Earth revolving around it.
    Last edited by Hyug; June 29th, 2022 at 12:35 PM.

  15. #153955
    Earth is probably particularly special going by TsukiRE
    Spoiler:
    Egg scene. Please wait for professor Roa to clarify.

  16. #153956
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I want a source on this one
    This is a question I've asked here b4 and the answer I got back then was Case Files anime (the first case of that one Animusphere branch dude). It is basically regarding the usage of geocentric model by the ancient Chaldeans and the Animusphere for their astromancy magecraft. They rely on the Age of God's basis of the Earth being the center of the universe, and in the AoG it achieved extremely powerful effect as shown with Wodime. But when the AoG ended and AoM turned around, geocentric model became "false" since the 17th century, leading to Astromancy Magecraft getting completely fucked. That's why it could only work as crazy as it was in LB5 where that kind of cosmology exists. So it seems that the current human texture, which extends to the whole solar system, covered over the AoG's geocentric cosmic model, which was a thing in pretty much all cultures and religions for the longest time back in the AoG.
    because I find really hard to believe that so many Outer Gods failed to notice such a central and important planet before Raum sent his cosmic smoke signal.
    But Gilles said all of the Outer Gods are long sealed away, how could they be sealed away if they never appeared b4 and did something that made them sealed off? And the convo of Raum and Zepar implied that Raum's attempt has been done before during Sefar's time, which to me implied that either someone back then already opened the door for Outer Gods, perhaps to try and fight off Sefar, but failed. Or that person tried to call Cthulhu but got Velber instead. In any case, even if he knew the importance of Earth, it's AoM's model now, the Earth is just a planet like any other.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyug View Post
    Anything can be called the center of the universe from one's own point of view. The fact that it stops being called that just shows the evolution of human ideas that became less centered on the idea on Earth being the center of the universe.
    Aliens living in other planets may have their own universes anyway where their planet is at the center with their version of Earth revolving around it.
    That is not the case. Humans texture took over the old one and got the model changed. That is why Astromancy magecraft was absolutely cracked in AoG and it became a joke nowadays. In the AoG your magecraft go by the gods, not humans, humans has zero control in this whole cosmology back then. That cosmology exists within LB5's AoG, and that was how Wodime could control the planets to bombard everyone. A similar case is when Ishtar casually warps to Venus (NOT AoM Venus, but AoG Venus) and could take the concept of it and use as bullet. You cannot do that in AoM because the current AoM texture denies that cosmology.

    AoG cosmology was clearly something that was there, but got retconned by the humans later on as the gods fade away. For other planets to do this, you have to assume they must have very similar development as Earth's humans, and that has even less weight than what I've been saying. All you got is "well MAYBE the other planets have that too". But that was never shown to be the case. Reminder than other planets in the solar system (including our freaking moon and the Oort cloud) had Types, but not Earth. That alone makes it special, even b4 anything else. A home to multiple alien races, the only place that we currently knew to have repelled Velber successfully, is without a doubt special. Assuming other planets could maybe perhaps probably sorta do the same when we knew NOTHING about them, is not a good argument.
    Last edited by Lily Emilio; June 29th, 2022 at 01:27 PM.

  17. #153957
    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post

    That is not the case. Humans texture took over the old one and got the model changed. That is why Astromancy magecraft was absolutely cracked in AoG and it became a joke nowadays. In the AoG your magecraft go by the gods, not humans, humans has zero control in this whole cosmology back then. That cosmology exists within LB5's AoG, and that was how Wodime could control the planets to bombard everyone. A similar case is when Ishtar casually warps to Venus (NOT AoM Venus, but AoG Venus) and could take the concept of it and use as bullet. You cannot do that in AoM because the current AoM texture denies that cosmology.

    AoG cosmology was clearly something that was there, but got retconned by the humans later on as the gods fade away. For other planets to do this, you have to assume they must have very similar development as Earth's humans, and that has even less weight than what I've been saying. All you got is "well MAYBE the other planets have that too". But that was never shown to be the case. Reminder than other planets in the solar system (including our freaking moon and the Oort cloud) had Types, but not Earth. That alone makes it special, even b4 anything else. A home to multiple alien races, the only place that we currently knew to have repelled Velber successfully, is without a doubt special. Assuming other planets could maybe perhaps probably sorta do the same when we knew NOTHING about them, is not a good argument.
    I really don't see how that makes Earth special. The universe that people from Earth see is shaped by Earth itself whether it is the center of the universe, the biggest celestial body or whatever doesn't change its power compared to other planets because the planets that you see from Earth anyway are not the real forms of these planets but just how they appear from Earth. So it doesn't really matter if Ishtar could summon Venus or astromancy magecraft can control the stars that doesn't make them more powerful than these celestial bodies.

  18. #153958
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyug View Post
    I really don't see how that makes Earth special. The universe that people from Earth see is shaped by Earth itself whether it is the center of the universe, the biggest celestial body or whatever doesn't change its power compared to other planets because the planets that you see from Earth anyway are not the real forms of these planets but just how they appear from Earth. So it doesn't really matter if Ishtar could summon Venus or astromancy magecraft can control the stars that doesn't make them more powerful than these celestial bodies.
    Why are you talking about powerlevel of Earth now? Gods having higher stats than Sefar (Konjiki Hakumen) lost to her. Powerlevel alone doesn't help you win against Sefar, who was just one Velber sentinel.

    I list multiple conditions that makes the Earth special, not just because it is the center, so idk why you keep focusing on that and act like it decides the outcome of Earth winning against Sefar. Aliens gathering hub (in fact when Moon Cell became open in CCC Tamamo ending, freaking aliens from other planets suddenly move in too), cosmology texture change base on the influence of the prime species, ancient advanced civilizations that could help fighting aliens or was created by aliens that helps humans advance, timeline pruning is important to maintaining the solar system for some reason, the only planet in the solar system that we knew to have no Type and had to rely on moon vampire to help creating one. I am saying that finding another planet with similar conditions to support the idea of "yeah other planets easily beat Velber just like Earth" is a flawed premise, because Earth will continue to be a special planet by the writers since the story revolves around it. The point is, without all of the special attention that Nasu attributes to TM's Earth and it's just like our RL Earth (which can apply to a whole bunch of planets in the universe assuming they have a civilization like RL Earth), you can imagine how easy it is for Sefar to do her job.

  19. #153959
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    This is a question I've asked here b4 and the answer I got back then was Case Files anime (the first case of that one Animusphere branch dude). It is basically regarding the usage of geocentric model by the ancient Chaldeans and the Animusphere for their astromancy magecraft. They rely on the Age of God's basis of the Earth being the center of the universe, and in the AoG it achieved extremely powerful effect as shown with Wodime. But when the AoG ended and AoM turned around, geocentric model became "false" since the 17th century, leading to Astromancy Magecraft getting completely fucked. That's why it could only work as crazy as it was in LB5 where that kind of cosmology exists. So it seems that the current human texture, which extends to the whole solar system, covered over the AoG's geocentric cosmic model, which was a thing in pretty much all cultures and religions for the longest time back in the AoG.
    Geocentrism is just older Mystery. Magecraft doesn't necessarily need its material to reflect reality. IIRC Fargo used geocentrism because heliocentrism is too modern for big Animusphere families to bother adapting. Will have to check out again to be sure though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    But Gilles said all of the Outer Gods are long sealed away, how could they be sealed away if they never appeared b4 and did something that made them sealed off? And the convo of Raum and Zepar implied that Raum's attempt has been done before during Sefar's time, which to me implied that either someone back then already opened the door for Outer Gods, perhaps to try and fight off Sefar, but failed. Or that person tried to call Cthulhu but got Velber instead. In any case, even if he knew the importance of Earth, it's AoM's model now, the Earth is just a planet like any other.
    This is from the same chapter that established the Outer Gods are in a major conflict against each other, so that's what makes the most sense as the cause of their imprisonment.

  20. #153960
    群星の探検家 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Geocentrism is just older Mystery. Magecraft doesn't necessarily need its material to reflect reality. IIRC Fargo used geocentrism because heliocentrism is too modern for big Animusphere families to bother adapting. Will have to check out again to be sure though.
    But I am talking about Animusphere's Astromancy Magecraft specifically. The reason it worked so well in LB5, as Holmes explained, was because of LB5's cosmology which is pretty much the Greece's model were super compatible with it. So while this magecraft doesn't need reality to match, if the condition of the world in reality is similar to what said magecraft is based on, it has extreme bonus. That's the point, it means that the AoG world has different layout of the cosmos and it was changed later, so these kind of magecraft lost huge power bonus due to "reality" is now different. And while it is texture based, I can see it (geocentric) being a default thing back then for all textures just with slight differences between the religions.

    This is from the same chapter that established the Outer Gods are in a major conflict against each other, so that's what makes the most sense as the cause of their imprisonment.
    I don't see how their infighting caused all of them to be imprisoned. Are you saying they all cast Stupefy onto each other all at once while trying to one-up each other? And even if that is the case, who imprisoned them for being naughty? Was it the same as when the world itself sealed Tiamat? Because even in that case, they have to already be there causing problems first, then they got sealed.

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