Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Sanguine]

On the subject of Urobuchi "getting it right" in Zero and HA wishes:

Spoiler:

I was under the impression that they were referring to Avenger's possession method, not the wish granting mechanics. They way he replicated and took on the form of Iri while it remained "truly her," or whatever being the same thing as how he takes on Shirou's form.

As for Wish Granting in HA and why it doesn't destroy the world, the way I heard it explained is that the "wipe out the world" bit only happens if the GRAIL grants the wish because its functions have been corrupted, just like its summoning functions were corrupted. After all, Avenger isn't the one summoning broken glitch servants, he just polluted the grail so it could, and the "all wishes equal death" is the same thing, NOT Avenger's personal will or anything.

In HA, its not the GRAIL granting Bazette's wish, which is why everybody doesn't die. Rather, its Avenger himself, because his nature as a heroic spirit is in fact the fulfillment of wishes (ie, the wish by his torturers that he bear all the evils of the world so they could be pure.) I can't say I know WHY Avenger decided to grant her wish though. That's just the summary/explanation I've heard.

[terraablaze]

I think we were always quite clear we meant the "possession" method.

[mAc Chaos]

No, I was talking about the wish granting mechanics.

[Mcjon01]

No, I was talking about the wish granting mechanics.

Yeah, but you were wrong.

[mAc Chaos]

That's why I asked.

Spoiler:

So the only wish granted in HA is the one by Avenger, and nothing using the Grail? How can he grant a wish without the Grail though.

[Mcjon01]

Because it was a wish he could grant.

[Break]

That's why I asked.

Spoiler:

So the only wish granted in HA is the one by Avenger, and nothing using the Grail? How can he grant a wish without the Grail though.

Granting a wish without the grail is no problem, its all just about the scale. Wish for a sandwish to the grail, and you magically get a sandwich created. However you can just make it without it, or ask Illya, who im sure has enough mana for a sandwich even without the Grail. The greater grail only has the mana-pool and the 3rd after all, the wishgranting magic is with the lesser grail/Illya, who can just grant your wish as long as the scale is not so big that it costs more mana than she has. And considering what a mana-powerhouse she is, quite a bit of stuff should be easily doable without finishing the ritual and having her die and your wish Angratainted.

[deckard]

Why was Saber so hellbent to erase her existence using the grail because she failed her country, when all she has to do is turn BBC on and see that it is not as bad as she thinks it is? The past is the past.

[Agailius]

Why was Saber so hellbent to erase her existence using the grail because she failed her country, when all she has to do is turn BBC on and see that it is not as bad as she thinks it is? The past is the past.

Because Saber has a huge stick up her asiwassaying.

[Siriel]

Why was Saber so hellbent to erase her existence using the grail because she failed her country,

The second part answers the first.

when all she has to do is turn BBC on and see that it is not as bad as she thinks it is?

Modern England and Saber's England might as well be completely separate places, you realize?

The past is the past.

Except if you're Saber, in which case it's your present.

Also the very concept of "the past is the past" only exists if you can't change the past, which she thought she could do.

[Altima of the Gates]

The big problem is that she was fated to do so, so saying that she wanted to redo the selection of the king wouldn't guarantee that the kingdom would be fine. And if you get the feeling behind it wrong, you wouldn't know whether you succeeded or not.

If she had thought of just eliminating the cause of the rebellion, that would be smarter, but since she thinks that she is invariably the entire cause of it, she is throwing out the baby with the bath water, which is likely not to do what she thinks it will.

[Siriel]

The big problem is that she was fated to do so, so saying that she wanted to redo the selection of the king wouldn't guarantee that the kingdom would be fine. And if you get the feeling behind it wrong, you wouldn't know whether you succeeded or not.

If she had thought of just eliminating the cause of the rebellion, that would be smarter, but since she thinks that she is invariably the entire cause of it, she is throwing out the baby with the bath water, which is likely not to do what she thinks it will.

But the question wasn't "Was Saber right to-", the question is "Why did Saber want to-".

[Mcjon01]

Modern England and Saber's England might as well be completely separate places, you realize?

Modern and Medieval anything might as well be completely separate places, though, so that's really just splitting hairs.

[Siriel]

Modern and Medieval anything might as well be completely separate places, though, so that's really just splitting hairs.

I'm just saying, going "Hey your country's fine!" and pointing at that place a thousand year later doesn't really reassure that things went well before.

[Kuradora]

That, and the Britons don't really exist as they once did.

[Mcjon01]

None of her citizens exist as they once did no matter how things went a thousand years ago because they're all dusty old bones now.

[deckard]

None of her citizens exist as they once did no matter how things went a thousand years ago because they're all dusty old bones now.

Exactly. By choosing to rewrite her self off as the king she could possibly fuck up the entire current timeline and arguably make things worse for everyone.

[mAc Chaos]

Exactly. By choosing to rewrite her self off as the king she could possibly fuck up the entire current timeline and arguably make things worse for everyone.

It's like Kiritsugu's wish. A world where there's no conflict is basically one without free will, but you didn't see Kiritsugu think about that. Or maybe he just didn't care.

[Siriel]

It is as though people weren't perfect and don't think through every aspect of what they want when presented with an omnipotent wish granting artifact.

[deckard]

That's also something that bothered me. Kiritsugu was somebody who always came prepared, planned for every possible worst case scenario and had an extremely fatalistic and pragmatic way of viewing and handling things that life through at him, and yet he bet all his chips on something that was extremely vague and nebulous on how exactly it granted your wish and how it functioned. I know Irisviel is a descendant of Justeaze and therefore has inherited memories of every detail on how the grail works, just like Ilya did in HF, but something of the things that Ilya said during her massive exposition dump seemed like things that Kiritsugu didn't know. Like information about the Greater Grail. Shouldn't he have known that destroying the lesser grail that Irisviel turned into wouldn't really have much of an effect in terms of permanently shutting down the grail system?