Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Seika]

Gilles does have an aspect that's a legitimate heroic spirit.

But yeah, I can't remember if it was an interview or one of the CMs but one of the times I posted this food or terra or somebody found something where Gilles was called a Vengeful Spirit.

Also in the doc.

聖遺物のないまま召喚が成されたとき、それに応じる英霊はマスターと精神性の似通ったものにな るという 。
この悪質な殺人鬼が期せずして招き寄せたのは、彼になお輪をかけて残虐な所行で後世に名を知ら しめた、正 真正銘の嗜虐の英霊だった。
いや、その性質を踏まえるならば、英霊というよりも怨霊と呼ぶのが 相応しい。

Ask McJon where the hell he pulled it from, though.

[Nephirin]

Weird. Archer is not a true heroic spirit yet he's an anti-hero? Wut.

Archer isn't an anti-hero.

After many sequences of events, one who becomes a heroic spirit ends up in that place.

There are those who left the world loved by people, and there are those who left the world praised as noble kings. There are those who died wanting to fight, and those who died in satisfaction. ...But it seems there are many that have been praised as heroes against their will.

If true heroes are those who have legitimately earned the title, these are a different kind. They were forced to the throne of heroes because of their fate, and they should be called Avenger, the anti-hero. They are the opposite of heroes, but they were praised as heroes regardless. Even those that hated humans and those the humans hated are summoned as guardians.

...But he's neither. He's not a true hero nor a rare anti-hero. He was never compensated for his efforts and his own life ended with betrayal, but he never hated humans.

[Seika]

And it was zero materials.

The second one's ZM. Is the first from an interview bit of it, then?

[Renko]

Archer isn't an anti-hero.

Eh? Lots of contradictions again....

If he's not, why him and Assassin are both examples?

[JetKinen]

Archer is the middleground

[Mcjon01]

But yeah, I can't remember if it was an interview or one of the CMs but one of the times I posted this food or terra or somebody found something where Gilles was called a Vengeful Spirit.

And it was zero materials.

The second one's ZM. Is the first from an interview bit of it, then?

You know, there's one other place to get information about things in Fate/Zero that you guys are overlooking.

[Kotonoha]

Whoa

Do you really expect me to read...

All That Shit!

by Urobuchi Gen

[Cruor]

You know, there's one other place to get information about things in Fate/Zero that you guys are overlooking.

It can't be the actual text because then you wouldn't have read it :P

[You]

The second one's ZM. Is the first from an interview bit of it, then?

That's from the novel.

[Gray]

Magic Circuits, basically.

Thank you, I remember when I asked what percentage of circuits from oneself can one put in a crest I heard mixed responses on whether that was how they were made.

[Siriel]

Eh? Lots of contradictions again....

If he's not, why him and Assassin are both examples?

Because true anti-heroes don't exist.

[forumghost]

Because true anti-heroes don't exist.

What about Avenger?

[You]

What about Avenger?

Not a pure anti-hero.
I mean that's what side materials says, "no pure anti-heroes."

[Siriel]

Avengers presumably isn't 'true' because he himself doesn't actually do anything, it's all done to him.

[Kuradora]

Avengers presumably isn't 'true' because he himself doesn't actually do anything, it's all done to him.

Objection. He hates and lives far longer than should be humanly possible.

[Seika]

The fact that Side Material doesn't even try to mention Avenger in that entry actually makes me think he still counts, and Nasu's just on one of his weird "Let's be coy about spoilers in the book designed to clarify the game" kicks. Like, if there was any person in the story who seemed like they qualified as an anti-hero and whom you'd need to clear up they aren't because true anti-heroes don't exist, that person was Avenger.

Plus, come on, have you looked at the scene Truth - Antihero Angra Mainyu lately? Not only the title, and all the specific times Avenger's called an anti-hero, but also all the ways Avenger qualifies for the definition given in Side Material and in the game.

それがアヴェンジャー ---- 三度目の儀式でアインツベルンのマスターが召喚してしまった、喚んではいけなかった反英雄

世界最多とも言える、あらゆる呪いを体現した殺戮の反英雄

---- それが反英雄アンリマユ。
“この世全ての悪”

皮肉も侮蔑も込めず、イリヤは淡々と大昔の出来事を語り終えた。
　……反英雄。
　その定義は、この戦いが始まってすぐ、言峰が俺に告げたものだ。

That last bit even ties this all into Kotomine's lecture where he says that anti-heroes don't exist - except here's Avenger, who actually fits everything in that infodump, so closely that Kirei's probably talking about him specifically.

"Well, about the anti-hero.
They are beings whose existence itself is evil, but their actions are good deeds according to people. They are beings who people set up as saviors, even if they don't want to be."

"Those are the heroic spirits called the anti-heroes. An example of this would be a sacrifice."

"Even if the sacrificed one is evil, he would become a hero if everyone in the village is saved because of the sacrifice, right?
It would not matter to anyone whether the sacrifice was eaten or buried.
If the one whom this disgrace was forced upon saves people, he would become a hero instead of a sinner."

"…… Is this like getting a high promotion for dying in combat?"

" ---- No, you are wrong.
The important part is the minds of the people who set up the hero.
A proper hero is created from respect, gratitude, and feelings of guilt. You cannot become an anti-hero from gratitude or guilt.
…Well, humans forget their ugliness and substitute farce with tragedy. Heroes who died as evil will be treated as victims as time goes on, and they will not stay as pure evil."

"…Will not stay as pure evil…?"

"Correct. Anti-heroes have to be both victim and assailant.
…They are created by the people, but are not a part of humanity. It is that contradiction which allows them to be 'the enemy of the world' exempt from all the restraining forces of the world."

"…But then, there aren't many pure anti-heroes.
They are something that does not exist. They are merely what people wish to exist."

"They are an ideal that humans have created, sacrifices to deny the original sin.
Just think of the anti-hero as one of the wishes that will never come true; a synonym for peace."

(That also counts out the "it was forced on him theory", because being a sacrifice is what anti-heroes are all about, apparently).

[You]

The fact that Side Material doesn't even try to mention Avenger in that entry actually makes me think he still counts, and Nasu's just on one of his weird "Let's be coy about spoilers in the book designed to clarify the game" kicks. Like, if there was any person in the story who seemed like they qualified as an anti-hero and whom you'd need to clear up they aren't because true anti-heroes don't exist, that person was Avenger.

Nasu is very inconsistent. Like the ryuudouji entry he talks about angra mainyu and the events, and then here he doesn't. Maddening so.

[Milbunk]

Nasu mentioned that Rin was likely to make the top 100 inside the clocktower right?

Now, disregarding the fact he died midway through Zero would Kayneth also be another person to make that list?

[Seika]

So, I went to check the bizarre translation "…But then, there aren't many pure anti-heroes. They are something that does not exist."
もっとも、純粋な反英雄などそうはいない。アレは存在しないモノだ。

Hm.

Now, disregarding the fact he died midway through Zero would Kayneth also be another person to make that list?

Can Kayneth kill Herakles?

[Milbunk]

That is more of a circumstantial thing, of course a Kayneth in that situation probably would have far poorly than Rin.

Now if this was a Herk invading the hotel that might be possible.