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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Zork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reign View Post
    Longinus is a pretty good dude too but a) I don't know if he's actually Christian himself or just revered by them and b) since I expect Chitose to be Requiem's final boss he'll probably become an antagonist for Erice down the line.
    IRL the Saint Longinus story involves him converting after Jesus' blood healed his blindness, but I'm guessing Requiem hasn't explained more about Fate/ Longinus.

    And well, Buddha was an antagonist in EXTRA so it's not like that matters much.

    Oh, and I guess EXTRA Vlad is supposed to be an evil religious lunatic?

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    リビングデッド Living Dead
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    Is charlemagne actually recorded in the throne or just on the mooncell?

    ムーンセルに同時に現れたカール大帝とは本来同一人物であり、別の側面。王としての全盛期がカール大帝なら ば、セイバークラスの全盛期として召喚されたのがシャルルマーニュだと言える。 だが、カール大帝の史実の中にシャルルマーニュ十二勇士の英雄譚は存在しない。その治世に聖剣や魔獣や魔女 は存在せず、十二勇士はカール大帝の精鋭のことでしかない。 シャルルマーニュの正体は大帝の影であり、カール大帝が捨て去った夢想の騎士である。それは大帝マーニュが 子供の頃に夢見た、どこまでも正々堂々、民の為に剣を振るう騎士の再現である。 サーヴァントのシャルルマーニュは英雄譚であるシャルルマーニュ十二勇士の聖騎士パラディンとしての側面で あり、本来は独立することのないイレギュラーである。 ただしカール大帝は史実においてあまりに偉大な存在であり、その史実が盾となり幻想を阻む。それ故、大帝の 人生に幻想が入り込む余地はどこにもない。 にも関わらず、英霊の座においてカール大帝とシャルルマーニュの二人は混同され、伝説に描かれた英雄キャラ クターとそのモデルとなった人物が結合してしまった。 かつて彼は身分と関係なく誰とでも酒を酌み交わし、異なる神を信じる者と友達になる。そんな風になりたかっ た。否、なろうと思った。───それがカール大帝との分岐点だったのかもしれない。 シャルルマーニュはそれを幻想に求め、カール大帝は現実で戦おうとした。だが想いだけは共通していた。自分 と同じで一人ぼっちだった女の子を、人斬り包丁を持たされて戦場に立つアルテラを、姉さんを助 けたかった。 大帝の影であるシャルルマーニュは、大帝が倒されれば死ぬ。本体が居なくなれば影は消えてしまう。誰が大帝 を討とうが、どこかに逃れたとしても、死は免れない。 そしてシャルルマーニュの現界は、ただ一度の奇跡であり、またとないイレギュラーな召喚である 。 次に召喚される時は、力づくで世界を統一するカール大帝でもなく、世界を救う為なら命を捨てるシャルルマー ニュでもなく…現実と理想を両立させ、史実と夢想の混ざった「カール大帝」が召喚されるのみで ある。 それを理解した上で、彼は暴走するカール大帝を騎士として、同じシャルルカールとして倒すために奔走するの だ。 アストルフォら他の十二勇士は普通に召喚できるのになぜ彼だけがまともな召喚が不可能なのかというと、モデ ルとなった人物の知名度の違いによる。 現実の十二勇士は精鋭の兵士でこそあったが、ただそれだけ。超常の力も驚愕の逸話も神秘の道具もないただの 人間であったため、幻想の十二勇士に組み込まれる余地がなかった。 しかし、シャルルマーニュの場合、カール大帝が偉大過ぎてどうあがいても「カール大帝のシャルルマーニュ伝 説」という風に大帝ありきの逸話、つまりは宝具の一つにでもなってしまうのである。彼の単体召喚とは、例え るなら水に溶かした砂糖一粒だけを取り出せというもので、何らかの過程によって分離した状態にしなければ不 可能

    The above is a supposed transcript from a jp wiki which i have no idea what. Did some google translation of it and it seems that it said so but i want to verify if its true. Is there any truth to it?

    I was also informed that apparently he was from a pruned timeline through this line of karl

    "貴様が経験した夢物語とは、剪定されたであろう事象のーつに過ぎん"
    Last edited by Reverse_side98; May 8th, 2021 at 04:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork Knight View Post
    IRL the Saint Longinus story involves him converting after Jesus' blood healed his blindness, but I'm guessing Requiem hasn't explained more about Fate/ Longinus.
    Well, it isn’t a complete backstory, but Requiem did give some good chunks of Lucius’ past. IIRC it placed the event that made him blind after Jesus’ death and didn’t tell who healed or when.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    You mean for all collectively or for each individual one?
    Mostly I'm looking for one covering Pre-FSN, but any sorta generalised universe timeline would probably be helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reign View Post
    CF mats had a Mage's Association timeline but I'm not sure if that's what you're asking for
    If it has any supplemental data on the Holy Grail War it might be useful, there's a resource for the CF in the first post I think, so I'll go check. Thank you both for the replies.
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    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reign View Post
    Longinus is a pretty good dude too but a) I don't know if he's actually Christian himself or just revered by them and b) since I expect Chitose to be Requiem's final boss he'll probably become an antagonist for Erice down the line.
    As far as I know Longinus' existence, including his name, is apocryphal and he's certainly not revered in any major capacity.
    Wikipedia lists him as a saint of both the Catholic AND Eastern Orthodox Church (as well as several other denominations), but the sources look pretty sketchy to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zork Knight View Post
    IRL the Saint Longinus story involves him converting after Jesus' blood healed his blindness, but I'm guessing Requiem hasn't explained more about Fate/ Longinus.

    And well, Buddha was an antagonist in EXTRA so it's not like that matters much.

    Oh, and I guess EXTRA Vlad is supposed to be an evil religious lunatic?
    The tale goes that he was the Roman soldier that stabbed Jesus with his lance, so he can't have been blind then.
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  6. #150106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    As far as I know Longinus' existence, including his name, is apocryphal and he's certainly not revered in any major capacity.
    Wikipedia lists him as a saint of both the Catholic AND Eastern Orthodox Church (as well as several other denominations), but the sources look pretty sketchy to me.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The tale goes that he was the Roman soldier that stabbed Jesus with his lance, so he can't have been blind then.
    There's actually a popular charm in Brazil where you promise you'll hop thrice if Saint Longinus helps you find some object you've lost, like keys

    Also, Golden Legend
    Some say that when he smote our Lord with the spear in the side, the precious blood avaled by the shaft of the spear upon his hands, and of adventure with his hands he touched his eyes, and anon he that had been tofore blind saw anon clearly, wherefore he refused all chivalry and abode with the apostles, of whom he was taught and christened, and after, he abandoned him to lead an holy life in doing alms and in keeping the life of a monk about thirty-eight years in Cæsarea and in Cappadocia, and by his words and his example many men converted he to the faith of Christ.

  7. #150107
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    That blindness seems very metaphorical.
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    吸血鬼 Vampire Arete's Avatar
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    Some do say it was metaphorical, but some say it might have been a form of 'mostly blind' and that the reason they had him stab Jesus was because none of the other guards would dare do it but he wasn't able to see who it was clearly. But yeah, probably just symbolic blindness.

    On a slightly related topic, I'm told that Rhongomyniad is full of grail mud. Is this true? It would certainly explain a lot and makes the connection to Longinus' lance a bit clearer.

    Anyway some Case Files questions; is there a good place to read them? How accurate is the anime to the books? And what book/s cover the Rail Zeppelin Arc?

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    吸血鬼 Vampire All fictions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arete View Post
    On a slightly related topic, I'm told that Rhongomyniad is full of grail mud. Is this true? It would certainly explain a lot and makes the connection to Longinus' lance a bit clearer.

    Anyway some Case Files questions; is there a good place to read them? How accurate is the anime to the books? And what book/s cover the Rail Zeppelin Arc?
    I don't know where you heard the Grail mudded Rhongo thing, but it's false.

    You can read Case Files here on Beast Laire, here translated by TwilightsCall. The anime was half original material until episode 7, where it adapts the canonical Rail Zeppelin arc of volumes 4 and 5. The anime is broadly accurate, except it switches some things up, like putting Svin's graduation in the last episode when it was in the prologue of the arc and not having Jean-Mario on the train. It gives a bigger role to Luvia, who didn't have any, and includes Kairi, who is just not in the novels. The anime seems to also bizarrely give romantic undertones to Gray's feelings towards Waver.
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    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    The anime seems to also bizarrely give romantic undertones to Gray's feelings towards Waver.
    Oh, those weren't in the novel?
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    I didn't sense anything romantic in the CF anime, just Add teasing a bit.

    Best thing to pick up on from the novels is the evolution of Gray and Waver's relationship. Gray is also a pretty fun narrator with her timid appearance and actions but scathing internal critique of everyone. It's especially obvious in the aforementioned relationship.

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    whydunit Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Oh, those weren't in the novel?
    Nah it's purely a mentor/student relationship in the LNs. Gray does really respect him of course (when she isn't insulting things in her narration like how dirty his home is) but there's no sign of the crush she had in the anime.

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    吸血鬼 Vampire
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    Joan of Arc was only canonized in 1920, interestingly, and Amakusa isn’t celebrated as a saint anywhere, likely in part due to the folklore belief that he cursed his enemies when he died.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverse_side98 View Post
    Is charlemagne actually recorded in the throne or just on the mooncell?
    I haven't played Link to really confirm anything, but going by the text block you dropped, the answer is neither. Charlie is a shadow of Karl who could only exist as his own thing once and dies when Karl is defeated. The 100% reality Karl and the 100% fantasy Charlie are thing only in this first summon and next time Karl is summoned, he'll be both at the same time.

    If they ever go to FGO, I'm expecting them to be different Ascensions of the same unit, with the other Ascension being a weird hybrid. Changing Classes with Ascension would be an original enough gimmick, although DW would probably prefer to play safer with a Saber with a passive that gives him Ruler resistances, or a Ruler with a passive that makes him weak to Archers because he's also a Saber.

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    There was a cameo of fantasy Charlie along with other Paladins in Apocrypha manga during Astolfo's flashback, so I wonder if the one summoned would be Charlie, given Astolfo's familiarity to him.

    Though it's also possible for both to be summonable, courtesy of Hakuno and Altera's effort in salvaging their data based on their fights to be recorded by Mooncell, as additional manpower to fight Velber. My guess is that by the end of hypothetical Link event, something is done to them similar to what BB did to the Alter Egos to make them summonable back in CCC.

    And it also helps DW to work on their kit based on what they have in Link instead of starting from scratch.
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  16. #150116
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Hawkeye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    The 100% reality Karl and the 100% fantasy Charlie are thing only in this first summon and next time Karl is summoned, he'll be both at the same time.
    Normally, yes, but in the final ending of Link, Hakuno uses their authority to save the data of both Karl and Charlie separately, allowing both to be summoned as they are in Link; Much like Glory said. So at least in the Mooncell, the two are now recorded as distinct entities from one another. I would expect in an event for Charlie to be a Welfare Saber and Karl to be a 5 star Ruler with his standard appearance being his second ascension after a boring first one with like his hat, chest cross and belt missing, then his third to add some of the mecha elements of his fortress NP and that be that.
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    吸血鬼 Vampire Arete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    I don't know where you heard the Grail mudded Rhongo thing, but it's false.

    You can read Case Files here on Beast Laire, here translated by TwilightsCall. The anime was half original material until episode 7, where it adapts the canonical Rail Zeppelin arc of volumes 4 and 5. The anime is broadly accurate, except it switches some things up, like putting Svin's graduation in the last episode when it was in the prologue of the arc and not having Jean-Mario on the train. It gives a bigger role to Luvia, who didn't have any, and includes Kairi, who is just not in the novels. The anime seems to also bizarrely give romantic undertones to Gray's feelings towards Waver.
    Cheers. Rail Zeppelin is later on than I thought. If Kairi isn't there then I presume that story he showed up in is just an anime original?

    I think there's an important clue for FGO in the first volume, though I don't know that I'll get round to reading it for awhile.

  18. #150118
    whydunit Reign's Avatar
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    Kairi's role in CF was anime-original yeah. And while Luvia appears in other cases, her role in Rail Zeppelin specifically was also anime-only.

  19. #150119
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reign View Post
    Kairi's role in CF was anime-original yeah. And while Luvia appears in other cases, her role in Rail Zeppelin specifically was also anime-only.
    Not that it's a bad thing. My major gripe with the anime is how it dealt with Jean-Mario Supinera. His role makes way less sense than it does in the novel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
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  20. #150120
    吸血鬼 Vampire
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    I don't really get cutting him while giving screen time to a bunch of random magi without names. Like he could have been in the background the entire time and then just had his little interaction from the studio on the train, but I guess they wanted the characters not on the train to have someone to seek for exposition.

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