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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #147941
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookworm Luke View Post
    I was just thrown off because I don't know the fancy term "aspect".
    It's TLed as Aspect or Factor, so sorry for the confusion. And yeah, Ether being in both systems of Elements/Aspects is pretty confusing.

    EDIT: So yeah, Comun, Devils/Demons should be the 6th Imaginary Aspect/Factor, not Element I think.

  2. #147942
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Aspects/Factors are stuff like Soul, Mind, Body, which were all 要素.
    This "definition" was only used in one sentence, so it makes more sense to assume factor is being used in its dictionary meaning rather than any Type-Moon glossary meaning. Specially since, taking your interpretation, the wording on the sentence implies these three Factors the Moon Cell uses to build their virtual avatars are the only Factors.

  3. #147943
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    This "definition" was only used in one sentence, so it makes more sense to assume factor is being used in its dictionary meaning rather than any Type-Moon glossary meaning. Specially since, taking your interpretation, the wording on the sentence implies these three Factors the Moon Cell uses to build their virtual avatars are the only Factors.
    I mean, it's not too off though.

    Before the EXTRA stuff we already know soul is 2nd, and spirit/mind is 3rd.

    I guess body would be 1st or 4th?

  4. #147944
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookworm Luke View Post
    I mean, it's not too off though.

    Before the EXTRA stuff we already know soul is 2nd, and spirit/mind is 3rd.

    I guess body would be 1st or 4th?
    Body is supposedly 1st, but Extella mats has them refer to body, soul, mind all together rather than separately.

    And why would there only be 3 Factors by my definition? The same terminology is used for Devils, Ether and True Ether, so should things not stay consistent in TLs?

  5. #147945
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Body is supposedly 1st, but Extella mats has them refer to body, soul, mind all together rather than separately.
    I am not sure Body was actually name dropped in Fate like the other ones, otherwise it would have been in the Japanese glossary.

    I am too lazy to go through Fate to look for it.

  6. #147946
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    And why would there only be 3 Factors by my definition?
    SE.RA.PHにおける電脳体とは、肉体・精神・魂の三要素を霊子化したものを指す。
    The kind of structure used in 三要素 implies 3 as the complete set, not as the amount of components present. Think of how people say 四天王 even when there's only one of them there.

    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    so should things not stay consistent in TLs?
    Not when "factor" is common use word that gets thrown around for its dictionary definition way more often than its used as series terminology.
    Last edited by Comun; June 29th, 2020 at 04:19 AM.

  7. #147947
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    The kind of structure used in 三要素 implies 3 as the complete set, not as the amount of components present. Think of how people say 四天王 even when there's only one of them there.



    Not when "factor" is common use word that gets thrown around for its dictionary definition way more often than its used as series terminology.
    Considering that FGO has Da Vinci use that same terminology for other stuff, I'm not seeing how that implication can be taken as it is.

    Aspect is fine with me too, I just disagree that Element should be used there for the description of Devils/Demons when the consistent TL is Aspect/Factor for that.

  8. #147948
    The most common rendition of 要素 was "substance", actually.

  9. #147949
    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    The most common rendition of 要素 was "substance".
    Let's call it "Youso-desu" because we are weebs.

  10. #147950
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    i was thinking of RMs that turn inwards.

    where can i read more about IRL religious or ideological thought on a person being a world or universe unto themselves?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  11. #147951
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    ancient religious text dies irae: amantes amentes
    ちょう
    もく


  12. #147952
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    ancient religious text dies irae: amantes amentes
    yes, i am aware that they use a similar concept 5 years after FSN was made popular
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  13. #147953
    Iunno, some alchemy stuff also focuses on purifying oneself spiritually but thats not much to do with what your after.

    adam kadmon?

  14. #147954
    Bad News LeadDemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    where can i read more about IRL religious or ideological thought on a person being a world or universe unto themselves?
    There's a fair amount of stuff that's about making oneself reflective of the world, depending on where you look. If you want a very very transparent example, Jain cosmology posits that the universe is shaped like a human body.

  15. #147955
    リビングデッド Living Dead Bar's Angel's Avatar
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    Are 本物の悪魔 and 真性悪魔 different things?

    Extra's Material seems to give some kind of distinction, so I always interpreted that the first case, is when a 受肉した悪魔 managed to get rid of his previous Designations, and that 真性悪魔 are the ones that could already manifest themselves autonomously since the beginning. And that's why the Church specifically puts the two in the same group, although they really are not exactly the same thing.

    But I always be a little confuse about this.

  16. #147956
    Fail Event Horizon Agailius's Avatar
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    Just how fast does Kiritsugu's Time Alter make him go?
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  17. #147957
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six forumghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agailius View Post
    Just how fast does Kiritsugu's Time Alter make him go?
    I mean it's kinda there in the chant dude.

    Double Accel = 2 Speed, etc

    He's not casting a spell that makes him faster, he's casting a spell that makes time move faster/slower for him then for everyone else.

  18. #147958
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    I mean it's kinda there in the chant dude.

    Double Accel = 2 Speed, etc

    He's not casting a spell that makes him faster, he's casting a spell that makes time move faster/slower for him then for everyone else.
    This is true but it also does literally make him faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by vol 2
    For example, when he fought Kayneth just then, Kiritsugu "sped up" his blood flow, haemoglobin metabolism, and muscle movement all at the same time. All that’s left is to use his quick reaction time to dodge the attack after he easily predicted the track the mercury whips would take. Kiritsugu is capable of accomplishing physical feats impossible for ordinary humans after he accelerated the time inside his body.

    The biggest problem for this magecraft is the huge burden on the body.

    The craft of time modification inevitably creates errors between the time within and without the bounded field. This error would immediately be corrected by natural forces when the bounded field is removed. That is, the "world’s own adjustment". Of course, this adjustment can only happen where "errors have occurred", which means inside Kiritsugu’s bounded field – his physical body. Adjustments have occurred in his flesh to get back in sync with the normal time flow.
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
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  19. #147959
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bar's Angel View Post
    Are 本物の悪魔 and 真性悪魔 different things?

    Extra's Material seems to give some kind of distinction, so I always interpreted that the first case, is when a 受肉した悪魔 managed to get rid of his previous Designations, and that 真性悪魔 are the ones that could already manifest themselves autonomously since the beginning. And that's why the Church specifically puts the two in the same group, although they really are not exactly the same thing.

    But I always be a little confuse about this.
    The Extra Mats use the 真性悪魔 entry to talk about the concept of Devils in general. It's Hollow Ataraxia that goes to explain the different between the real and the fake.

    聖堂教会が語る『受肉した魔』もこの例に当て嵌まる。
    生物である前に『魔』として創造されたモノたちは、人間より高度な魔術を行使する。
    魔術師(われわれ)の魔術回路は疑似神経にすぎない。人間としての神経の裏に作り上げた、後付 の能力だ。
    だが―――『魔』には疑似神経などない。
    彼らにとって、その生体機能全てが『魔』を呼び込む為の機能なのだから。
    教会ではそれを『真性悪魔』と呼ぶのだそうだ。
    人間の想念を被(かぶ)って『個体名』に成る偽物とは違う、主が遣わした、人が名付ける前からそうであった 本当の『悪魔』だと。
    The incarnated magic the Holy Church talks about the is another example of this. [referring masses of magical energy with personalities]
    Those who were magic before they were living beings can use magecraft on a much higher level than humans can.
    The magic circuits we mages have are nothing more than fake nerves. An add-on ability we built behing our regular human nerves.
    However, beings of magic don't have fake nerves.
    That's because all of their bodily functions are about bring in magic.
    The Holy Church calls those being True Devils, as far as I know.
    Unlike the fakes who earned individual names by taking the form of human ideas, those is the real Devils who used to serve the Lord and was already and were already Devils even before they was named by humans.
    Keypoint is the last line. The regular Devils are Sixth Imaginary Element creations who possess humans and attempt to incarnate in the process of granting someone's wish wrong, and the True Devils are literal fallen angels and I believe have never been not incarnate.

  20. #147960
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agailius View Post
    Just how fast does Kiritsugu's Time Alter make him go?
    If you want some direct wank, it makes him faster than magical lightning (dunno if it would be legitimate lightning speed like Atomic Gatorade though), since he can dodge mercury blob, which can supposedly react fast enough to protect kayneth against said magical lightning
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

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