Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Arete]

In connection to my previous question, is the 'messiah' word used for Saver (救世主) different than for the one in the Nega messiah skill (ネガ・メサイヤ)? Obviously the characters aren't the same but since they're done using different alphabets I'm not sure if that means that they really are different. Some clarification on this point would be nice.

Also does anyone know what the magatama-like jewels and symbols that Prince of Lanling has on him are called? I know the magatama is a more Japanese thing so I'm assuming this is something different but possibly related.

[Comun]

The Saver Class uses the Japanese word kyuuseishu and Nega-Messiah uses the English word messiah. Can't explain the difference in nuance until we get to see Beast VI in action, but Kiara's Nega-Saver indicated the two words are separate things.

The magatamas are magatamas. Here's the artist's justification.

[Tony246]

So I reached the part where Kirei explains a bit about the origins of the Holy Grail and the war. He talks about the Einzberns specializing in 'the golden rule of the line'. So my question is, what is 'the golden rule of the line'? I poked around a bit on google and such since this seems pretty specific but nothing pops up.

[AAM1232]

So I reached the part where Kirei explains a bit about the origins of the Holy Grail and the war. He talks about the Einzberns specializing in 'the golden rule of the line'. So my question is, what is 'the golden rule of the line'? I poked around a bit on google and such since this seems pretty specific but nothing pops up.

It's a mistake in TL when it should be "gold of the Rhine". Kirei's talking about the Rheingold, Siegfried's cursed treasure that the Einzberns got and used in making the HG.

[Ratman]

I just saw that in Emiya's FGO profile it's mentioned that the tools he projects are only around for a few minutes.

https://fategrandorder.fandom.com/wiki/EMIYA

But it was established in FSN that the stuff Shirou projects specifically isn't temporary.

https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20304/

Does anyone know what is up with that? Is there a special reason behind it, or is that just a retcon I missed?

False NPs get rejected by the World as fakes.

Shirou has never tried projecting NPs and the stuff he did project were just empty shells. Later in Heaven's Feel he projects a very special thing and it stays around permanently because it is not a NP.

Archer mostly projects NPs and disposes of them quickly, his bow does not go away either.

[Comun]

Making special stuff and convincing the world it’s real is probably First Magic.

[AAM1232]

False NPs get rejected by the World as fakes.

Shirou has never tried projecting NPs and the stuff he did project were just empty shells. Later in Heaven's Feel he projects a very special thing and it stays around permanently because it is not a NP.

Archer mostly projects NPs and disposes of them quickly, his bow does not go away either.

I don't think Shirou's Projections/Tracings of NPs work like that. It's not normal Projection which naturally evaporates but application of UBW, so where does the above come from?

[aAlouda]

False NPs get rejected by the World as fakes.

I am not saying this is wrong, but do you know where this is from, I dont recall any such thing being stated.

Shirou has never tried projecting NPs and the stuff he did project were just empty shells. Later in Heaven's Feel he projects a very special thing and it stays around permanently because it is not a NP.

Yeah, but the fact that stuff he normally projects, stays around even if their reproduction was lacking, but magical swords he has an affinity for wouldn't, seems weird.

Archer mostly projects NPs and disposes of them quickly, his bow does not go away either.
I thought he just returns the stuff he projects and doesen't break to his reality marble, since he mentiosn that it stores the weapons he creates.

Also, I looked through FSN again a bit, watching out for scenes of projections disapearing and saw this scene where Shirou's first projection of Archer's swords in UBW disapear during the fight against Caster and Kuzuki.

We spring apart.
The twin swords that parried thirty attacks break as if saying they cannot take any more.
It's not because they lost against Kuzuki's fists.
The swords disappeared because I couldn't maintain their image.

https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20174/

Does anyone know what maintain their image means in this context? I thought the mental effort was only part of creating them, not something continuesly done afterwards, like I doubt he always focuses on maintianing the stuff in his shed

[madarra]

The unbreakable sword i imaged has a crack, so its not unbreakable, so it doesnt match the image, so i didnt project it right, so it vanishes.

Another way to put it is that Shirou has to guess how much durability damage the sword took every 30 seconds and if he guesses wrong it vanishes instantly

[Arete]

The Saver Class uses the Japanese word kyuuseishu and Nega-Messiah uses the English word messiah. Can't explain the difference in nuance until we get to see Beast VI in action, but Kiara's Nega-Saver indicated the two words are separate things.

The magatamas are magatamas. Here's the artist's justification.

Thanks! I probably should've checked Lanling's mats before, but this is actually quite good as it indicates what they want associated with the magatama.

[You]

Does anyone know what maintain their image means in this context? I thought the mental effort was only part of creating them, not something continuesly done afterwards, like I doubt he always focuses on maintianing the stuff in his shed

You have constantly maintain the mental image. Or rather, the moment the image that you projected the item with and the reality of the situation do not align, it disappears as you reject the image.
You can read the entire discussion here
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20197/
but the TLDR is

So, if I sum it up…

"All right.
So, I imagined a sword that would not break and projected it. But the projected sword broke during battle.
When that happened, I denied the sword, saying 'Hey, this sword broke.' As a result, the projected sword disappeared.
And that's because there was an inconsistency between reality and the image, right?"


"You're pretty bright. Yes, you're right.
You projected Archer's swords.
I don't know how you ranked Archer's swords, but you did not imagine swords that would break from Kuzuki's attacks."


"But the swords were destroyed.
At that time, you thought, 'these aren't Archer's swords'.
The projected swords were denied by the maker, so they lost their strength of existence and became a fantasy once again."

- - - Updated - - -

Its a discussion of the ultimate theme of the route using projection as a symbol.
The ideal does not disappear when it is repeatedly broken (e.g. Archer being forced to kill people over and over), but when one denies it. Therefore, even if it's a fantasy, the ideal can still hold no matter how broken it is, as long as the person believes in it.

That is the answer Shirou comes to in the scene aptly named Answer where a bent Kanshou retains its image.

"That's right. I already knew that…"
…This is just a dream.
But I kept on believing in it because I thought it was right.
Kiritsugu pursued it because he knew it was an unattainable dream, an impossible ideal.

Even if it may be unattainable…
He believed that he would reach his destination if he kept running.

[Ratman]

Never realized this, neat.

[AAM1232]

You have constantly maintain the mental image. Or rather, the moment the image that you projected the item with and the reality of the situation do not align, it disappears as you reject the image.
You can read the entire discussion here
https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20197/
but the TLDR is


- - - Updated - - -

Its a discussion of the ultimate theme of the route using projection as a symbol.
The ideal does not disappear when it is repeatedly broken (e.g. Archer being forced to kill people over and over), but when one denies it. Therefore, even if it's a fantasy, the ideal can still hold no matter how broken it is, as long as the person believes in it.

That is the answer Shirou comes to in the scene aptly named Answer where a bent Kanshou retains its image.

You, do you remember if Shirou/EMIYA's projected NPs are rejected by the world for being fakes, or is that just something being misunderstood and wrongly applied here? I thought they were like his other projections in the shed that just last as long as he doesn't suddenly doubt them.

[eddyak]

No, they're specifically magic that's crushed by the world. They're extensions of his Reality Marble.

[Mattias]

So in a way it's reality crushing his dreams.

But also if you believe super hard, your dream can change the world for a moment.

[AAM1232]

No, they're specifically magic that's crushed by the world. They're extensions of his Reality Marble.

His RM being crushed =/= his 'Projections' being crushed. We just read up the scene where they lasted as long as he wanted to in the shed. We know that they're not like regular Projected stuff which easily evaporates. I was asking for proof that projected NPs get rejected and crushed, since it would contradict how Shirou's Projections worked before.

[Comun]

Unlike his projected swords, his projected kettles aren't part of his Reality Marble. I don't see why the two things would work under the same principles.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I thought everything he projected was in fact being pulled from UBW, and that none of Shirou's projections were normal Projection Magecraft/Gradation Air?

[All fictions]

It would not have taken a definite form if it were a normal Holy Grail, such as Einzbern's gold or a bronze using a body of a magus.

So that's a weird line, I'm not sure what is meant here. Does it literally mean making bronze out of a magus' body? Something more mystical like orichalcum, often thought to have been a type of bronze? Or is it Mirror Moon that translated weirdly, and what the line says is making bronze heads out of magus?

[AAM1232]

Unlike his projected swords, his projected kettles aren't part of his Reality Marble. I don't see why the two things would work under the same principles.

What Gau said though, I thought everything he does regarding Projection is from UBW?