Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Lobo]

Normally, yes, but in the final ending of Link, Hakuno uses their authority to save the data of both Karl and Charlie separately, allowing both to be summoned as they are in Link; Much like Glory said. So at least in the Mooncell, the two are now recorded as distinct entities from one another. I would expect in an event for Charlie to be a Welfare Saber and Karl to be a 5 star Ruler with his standard appearance being his second ascension after a boring first one with like his hat, chest cross and belt missing, then his third to add some of the mecha elements of his fortress NP and that be that.

I'm of the same opinion althought I'm a little sceptical about a character as popular as Charlie been given as welfare, though it'll be super cool (His character stole the show in Link for me). But like Comun mentioned, it'll be cool as well if both Charlie and Karl would gain some visual characteristics from the other as they ascend to represent their connection

[Ratman]

And now I find myself speculating about whether or not Sir Blackmore is related to them or not.

Sniper or not, he needed to be a magus to get into the Moon Cell.

[Misaya]

Maybe Dan is related to them, as Bersac is described as being ridiculously high combat ability in the present day, Dan could be similar situation as he is the very best solider of the Queen.

[aldeayeah]

It's pretty clear it's hinting at something. It doesn't look too much like Grail Mud, sure, but the golden glowy Rhon's insides being spooky dark crap isn't just for effect.

rather than AM it reminded me of the mana transfer dragon scene

[Hawkeye]

It occurs to me that when I bought my new laptop, it doesn't have a disk drive or anything. So has TM made any provisions for digital copies of their older works? I wanna buy HA, but I don't know if I can get a digital version.

[Rafflesiac]

Worst case scenario just buy a USB disc drive.

[Deathhappens]

And now I find myself speculating about whether or not Sir Blackmore is related to them or not.

I was just thinking "I wonder if Sir Dan had anything to do with them".

[Hawkeye]

Worst case scenario just buy a USB disc drive.

Yeah, but I didn't wanna spend the money on it if I'm only gonna use it for one thing. :/

Still, anyone know the best place to find the game? Would Ebay work or is there a more reliable source?

[Crown]

You could probably ask Keripo in the loot thread. I hope you have enough money to buy old TM stuff. Even second hand is abusive.

[Hawkeye]

You could probably ask Keripo in the loot thread. I hope you have enough money to buy old TM stuff. Even second hand is abusive.

Thanks, I'll go check. And yeah, I checked Ebay, unless it's the PSVita version, those prices were astronomical. OnO

[aAlouda]

Why exactly does the Mage Association oppose Dead Apostels? Like, aren't most of them still mages who keep the secrecy, while advancing mageacraft? I kinda doubt it's for ethical reasons, considering how tolerant the mage association is of human experimentation and sacrifice.

[Tenshi]

Aside the fact DAs are by their core beings that reject the whole meaning of Human Order and live by a proscribed immortality. It's because, by nature most Dead Apostles would pursue goals that run counter to anything humanity strives for, Association can be a bunch of crackheads but they still think what they do's for humanity after all. Zelretch's special case says a lot about how you really need to prove yourself a beneficiary to be part of it all. Also the Association already dislikes people who tend to do slightly dodgy researches by their standards, imagine how they'd see people like Alcatraz or Roa. It's just a compatibility that will hardly come forth unless you're still fully capable of not turning your back on certain conceptions when you're a DA, what's already wrong by the very premise from the moment you have chosen to be one.

[Deathhappens]

Why exactly does the Mage Association oppose Dead Apostels? Like, aren't most of them still mages who keep the secrecy, while advancing mageacraft? I kinda doubt it's for ethical reasons, considering how tolerant the mage association is of human experimentation and sacrifice.

AFAIK the Mage Association doesn't oppose Dead Apostles per se (their Wizard Marshal is a DA, after all). They oppose research into becoming a Dead Apostle, because as in the incident with Noritaka Emiya such research all too often leads to experiments or situations that break the secrecy and need to be "contained" by the Enforcers.


EDIT: Of course then there's Barthomeloi Lorelei who just hunts them for sport, but it's not like she represents "official Clock Tower business" when she does that.

[You]

Why exactly does the Mage Association oppose Dead Apostels? Like, aren't most of them still mages who keep the secrecy, while advancing mageacraft? I kinda doubt it's for ethical reasons, considering how tolerant the mage association is of human experimentation and sacrifice.

A Dead Apostle decides to participate in a territorial dispute with another Dead Apostle. A lot of people die and their blood is sucked. The collateral leads to missing journalists and rumors flying about.
Policies is not happy.
Two weeks later, your grandmother shares a Facebook post about european aristocrats drinking the blood of children to stay forever young.

A Dead Apostle's worst enemy and greatest fear is boredom.
What greater enemy would the Association have than powerful magical creatures that prey on people who just don't want to be bored.

[MarqFJA87]

I'd like to confirm if I've managed to understand the relationships and differences between the following Nasuverse terms, because the available translations from the Type-Moon Fandom Wiki retain Nasu's confusingly grandiloquent descriptions, and seeking answers elsewhere gave rather conflicting answers. Note that the English translations of the Japanese terms being the ones used on the Fandom wiki were chosen strictly for ease of recognition by as many people as possible.

Demon (魔 Ma) is a catch-all category for “distortions of nature”, i.e. beings that were either naturally born as monsters (怪物 Kaibutsu) (e.g. individuals like Asterios, races like the Oni), were originally natural beings that were transformed into Demonic existences later in life (e.g. Medusa after she became the Gorgon), or are artificial creations that were specifically designed to be Demonic existences (e.g. Len). They are contrasted against Divine beings, and the same type of creature can be one or the other depending on the local culture; dragons, for example, are Demonic Phantasmal Beasts in Europe, while East Asian dragons are Divine Spirits.

Daemons (悪魔 Akuma) are a class of Demons that are byproducts of human consciousness, which need to anchor themselves to a physical object (often a living being) to affect the material world and would be significantly empowered if given a name of their own (e.g. Solomon’s 72 Demon Gods).

True Daemons (真性悪魔 Shinsei Akuma) are Demons that were spontaneously born in their state, independently of human (or even any mortal) existence. They vastly eclipse all the aforementioned in sheer power, with the exercise of their absurdly potent magecraft being as trivial to them as the process of breathing is to a human, and they also reside outside the universe that is inhabited by mortals, making them comparable to the Outer Gods. It's apparently implied that it's possible for Daemon to become a True Daemon if they possess a mortal and said mortal's psyche has enough resilience to not collapse in the process. No actual examples exist in canon yet, though Kiara Sesshôin is said to have attained an existence pretty close to one (keyword being "close"; by definition she could not become one since she was born as a flesh-and-blood being of this universe).

[Comun]

Demon (魔 Ma)

Sounds good.

Daemons (悪魔 Akuma; sing. “Daemonium”) need to anchor themselves to a physical object (often a living being)

I don't remember any mention of devils being able to possess non-human objects.

True Daemons (真性悪魔 Shinsei Akuma) reside outside the universe that is inhabited by mortals, making them comparable to the Outer Gods.

It's unclear which brand of devil is comparable to Outer Gods, or for what reason. The option that makes the most sense is them being comparable to the non-True kind because Outer Gods are also destructive influences that can't on Earth without possessing a human (a Foreigner Servant in their case).

It's apparently implied that it's possible for Daemon to become a True Daemon if they possess a mortal and said mortal's psyche has enough resilience to not collapse in the process. No actual examples exist in canon yet, though Kiara Sesshôin is said to have attained an existence pretty close to one (keyword being "close"; by definition she could not become one since she was born as a flesh-and-blood being of this universe).

True Devils are incarnated demons, and fully demonized humans are also incarnated demons, but that doesn't necessarily means they become True Devils. They still fail the condition of already being what they are before any human gave them an identity.

[AAM1232]

It should be a bannable offense to use Daemon as a term in that context again.

[Zork Knight]

I'll care about True Demons when I see one

[MarqFJA87]

I don't remember any mention of devils being able to possess non-human objects.

Yeah, I was just being cautious, considering the immensity of the Nasuverse lore.

It's unclear which brand of devil is comparable to Outer Gods, or for what reason. The option that makes the most sense is them being comparable to the non-True kind because Outer Gods are also destructive influences that can't on Earth without possessing a human (a Foreigner Servant in their case).

The entry in which the comparison is made is specifically about True Daemons, though. The ambiguity would make me think that it would default to the entry's subject.

True Devils are incarnated demons

... Are you talking about Ma or Akuma when you say "demons"?

and fully demonized humans are also incarnated humans

What does "incarnated human" mean?

but that doesn't necessarily means they become True Devils. They still fail the condition of already being what they are before any human gave them an identity.

Yeah, I don't dispute that. Even the Fate/EXTRA material entry that I paraphrased on the matter agrees with you, it just phrased it differently.

It should be a bannable offense to use Daemon as a term in that context again.

What's with the disproportionate hostility?

I'll care about True Demons when I see one

... Nobody asked you to. Or compelled you to participate in this discussion that you clearly don't want to constructively contribute to.

[Comun]

... Are you talking about Ma or Akuma when you say "demons"?

Ma

What does "incarnated human" mean?

Incarnated demon, but when you don't proofread.