Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Reign]

Incidentally it occurred to me tonight that given her friendship with Alice May's middle name is probably supposed to be Liddell, not Riddel. As in Alice Liddell, the real Alice who Alice In Wonderland was written for.

[Random]

Hey there, I'm on a quest for a certain tidbit.

I was looking over old fansites, including RoyalKnight's PBWorks and arai's Fuyuki, and I came across the concept that "daemons are reverse ether".

Specifically, arai drew a link between Ether and Daemons as possibly being the same, and RoyalKnight later expanded this (presumably based on arai's writings) into "reverse Ether". Not sure what it means.

Normally I would just write this off as 15-year-old headcanon and ignore it, but in the wake of Imaginary Scramble and the idea that "everything from outer space has always been fictional" alongside the CCC material entry that likens True Daemons to the Lovecraftian gods... I always thought that was just an analogy, but knowing that celestial bodies are composed of Ether made me wonder if there's actually something to this.

Can anyone debunk/substantiate this?

[Kamera]

Demons are their own element; the Imaginary Sixth Factor. Ethers are the Fifth Factor.

[Random]

Right, I know that. I'm just flopping around trying to work out if there's a relationship. I'm also aware of the time that Character Material(?) said that Cybele were made of "Ether, the Sixth Imaginary Factor", although I'm willing to concede this was a typo or just a mis-TL.

[Kamera]

Maybe you can also draw parallel with how regular Ethers are referred as Fifth Imaginary Factor while True Ethers are called Fifth True Factor. In this case, while regular Demons are the Sixth Imaginary Factory, True Demons might be the Sixth True Factor.

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Oh, there's also the fact that Cursed Arm's Shaytan's is made out of Ether Clump, so maybe one can be converted into the other.

[Comun]

Vol 9 also mentions the Lord of Botany was involved with the arms industry if my memory serves me right. I may be wrong though.

It said they were in the munitions industry up until the previous generation. I guess the implication is that when Riddell took over, she shifted the armament funds into the development of card game holograms and Blue-Eyes White Dragon theme parks.

Incidentally it occurred to me tonight that given her friendship with Alice May's middle name is probably supposed to be Liddell, not Riddel. As in Alice Liddell, the real Alice who Alice In Wonderland was written for.

That’s definitely the inspiration for it but

[Petrikow]

Hey there, I'm on a quest for a certain tidbit.

I was looking over old fansites, including RoyalKnight's PBWorks and arai's Fuyuki, and I came across the concept that "daemons are reverse ether".

Specifically, arai drew a link between Ether and Daemons as possibly being the same, and RoyalKnight later expanded this (presumably based on arai's writings) into "reverse Ether". Not sure what it means.

Normally I would just write this off as 15-year-old headcanon and ignore it, but in the wake of Imaginary Scramble and the idea that "everything from outer space has always been fictional" alongside the CCC material entry that likens True Daemons to the Lovecraftian gods... I always thought that was just an analogy, but knowing that celestial bodies are composed of Ether made me wonder if there's actually something to this.

Can anyone debunk/substantiate this?

Keep in mind that when Arai and RoyalKnight wrote about this, much of what we knew about True Ether and its relation to the Fifth Factors (True and Imaginary) were based on stuff from Notes (specifically the part about it in Character Material) which we know know has been flipped on its head, with seemingly now the Fifth True Factor being True Ether, while in the past the Fifth Imaginary Factor was True Ether.

I kind of want to say something more about this, but I'll just wait for Leftovers to come around. He probably has a better take on it.

[Arete]

Since the KnK collab, has there been anything new about the Monster of Alaya in anything?

[Comun]

No, one mention in Kagetsu, one mention FGO's KnK event, and that's it so far.

[Leftovers]

I kind of want to say something more about this, but I'll just wait for Leftovers to come around. He probably has a better take on it.

I wouldn't change anything from last time except maybe substance -> factor:

If you're interested in a highly speculative non-answer, here's one.

So here's the thing. The sixth substance has been called both "demons" and "ether" - the latter in the context of Rider's mystic eyes which we know little about, the former is obviously connected to the TM concept of demons. That topic is fairly complicated in itself, but what's relevant to the sixth substance is how the "fake" demons manifest themselves through the "wishes" of humans and by "taking on the name" of demons (that is to say, the concept of demons itself). The interactions of demons with human wishes and names can be seen in Merem's demonition (giving form to human imagination/wishes, giving his demons a name would make them independent) and DDD ("demonic possession" as a response to the human wish of 'alleviating suffering', the real demons of Kaie being given names and seemingly embodying emotions), a work written concurrently with Hollow, our main source of demon info that Nasu has once stated he wanted to connect with. This in itself indicates a substantiation of what is formless and nameless through a medium that imparts an existential property to it.

At this point there are the other substances to consider. Body, soul, mind, and then ether. Ether is notable because it is the factor through which magecraft becomes possible via interaction with the four elements, and speculation has it that the first magic, the emergence of fake ether, and the proliferation of magecraft are linked events. Hence both "demons" and "ether" seem to indicate an interaction between a 'concept' and a 'catalyst' to enable the materialisation of what has no form of its own (this is reminiscent of the function of the two imaginary elements, Hollow and Nothing).

So, if we disregard Rider's retinas being made of

Ether

the sixth imaginary substance

as a typo/old idea, which is supported by how Ophelia's eyes seem to drop that line of thinking, the sixth substance seems to operate on the principle of either imagination-actualisation and wish-granting, or the imaginary-attaining-form. Considering the other substances appear to be some sort of fundamental components, it is an open question whether something as narrow as "demons" represents one, or whether it's a blanket category for this kind of phenomenon/interaction.

And who knows if that question will be answered anytime soon.

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If this doesn't actually explain the mystic eyes, it's because the mystic eyes aren't explained lul

The idea of a medium that imparts meaning to something meaningless or allows the materialisation of something immaterial has been iterated a number of times. The key to defining these interactions lies in a broader explanation of the function of 要素/substances/factors, which does not appear forthcoming. So in short, "alternate" fits more than "reverse" when it comes to being "imaginary" ie. facilitating the materialisation of the immaterial by assigning a property to it. Or, at a stretch, I suppose it can probably be said that fake demons are to true demons what fake ether is to true ether, in that they require certain interactions to pull off an imitation of the thing they're trying to be.

[Trubo]

What was the name of that one spinoff that had Kuzuki and Medea's kid as one of the main characters? Don't think that was Tsuki no Sango, but that's the only thing coming to mind right now.

[Skull]

Hana no Miyako?

[Rafflesiac]

It was Hana no Miyako with Kuzuki Ami.

[Trubo]

Yeah that's the one. Dunno why I keep forgetting it.

[Arete]

No, one mention in Kagetsu, one mention FGO's KnK event, and that's it so far.

Oh? I thought it was Tsuki that had the first mention of it. Is there another in Kagetsu? It certainly wouldn't be surprising I missed that given it's status.

[Comun]

No, the first mention is in Kagetsu. Specifically in the side story titled Crimson Moon.

[pinetree]

"Now, it's my turn. Actually, there's something important I've forgotten to ask you too.""What? You're not going to learn anything from me. I'm not a vampire or anything, just an ordinary student."
"Hmmm. Then let me ask you this, Shiki. How exactly did you kill me?"
"Huh?"


"I'm asking about the method you used. I'm resistant against stuff like Runes and Kabbalah, so those don't work on me. The only things I'm not resistant against is magic I've yet to experience, which is probably limited to the ancient Shinto in this country and the treasures in South America."

Have these treasures from South America ever been mentioned again after this?

[Comun]

Only if the remade version of this scene counts.

[Leftovers]

Depends on how solid the concept of Noble Phantasms was at the time of writing. To wit:

"occult artifact" -> 年代物の神秘 -> ancient mystery
sacred treasures -> 神器 (think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Regalia_of_Japan)

and in a later Ciel scene:

「遠野くんのナイフって、彼女が持ち出した対吸血鬼用の武器なんでしょ？

"Your knife, is it not an anti-vampire weapon she brought?"」

[...]

「それとも遠野くんのお家の家宝か何かですか？　……あ、けど遠野の血筋に退魔の宝具があるのはおかしいですよね」

"Or is it a family treasure? Hmmm, but it would be strange for the Tohno family to possess an anti-demon weapon."

anti-demon "weapon" -> 退魔の宝具

Both only mentioned this once. A ctrl+f of the Remake says the latter was removed and the former was kept as is. Seeing as the things Arcueid describes sound pretty much like NPs, one could assume a number of spicy things, especially since Nasu kept the line intact.

[pinetree]

Interesting. Surprising that he didn't change anything about it in the Remake.
Thanks you two.