Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[ItsaRandomUsername]

I think the issue with Medusa going full-gorgontard had less to do with mucking up the Throne, but more with affecting every other loop in /hollow following her turning? Maybe?

It's one of my favorite scenes but darn if it didn't kind of confuse me.

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I'm probably misinterpreting a crapton about it. Might as well re-read it by this point.

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But really, it would be kind of hard to enjoy eternally looping peaceful days when one of the players on stage is basically something that would give Lovecraft a wet dream. Every time our heroes go to the pool they'd have to ram a boat into Rider to keep her down.

[mewarmo990]

Yeah, similarly I've noticed myself getting confused a lot about what Archer says/thinks in UBW. It's been 7 years. I need to replay it, in Japanese this time.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

Doesn't help that there's who-knows-what lost in translation.

[mewarmo990]

Yeah. When he starts talking about world lore stuff Nasu gets hard to translate. Sometimes it's the translator's fault for getting it wrong but a lot of times it's just not easy to get the point across in the same limited amount of space, and even then it still reads like a mess just as it did in Japanese.

Like, Apocrypha which I'm helping CanonRap edit/check is way easier by comparison. Urobuchi Gen not so much, despite the subject matter he wrote Zero more like actual literature novel than a light novel. However he still wasn't as convoluted as Nasu.

[peanuts]

I think the issue with Medusa going full-gorgontard had less to do with mucking up the Throne, but more with affecting every other loop in /hollow following her turning? Maybe?

It says pretty clearly in the runes that she's saying something about her heroic spirit throne/seat/whatever flipping over to the Gorgon.
I'm not sure what's happening but it would be nice if our savior from the kitchen forum would grace us with an explanation.

[forumghost]

rin and ilya got along better, since they were their usual classic selves

all saber did was eat

>Implying that this isn't classic Saber.

[Rafflesiac]

>Implying that this isn't classic Saber.

Classic Saber also beats up Shirou when he doesn't feed her and gets wrecked.

[mAc Chaos]

Rin really, really wasn't.

Which parts? She seemed normal to me. It was Shirou that seemed to be acting different at points.

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>Implying that this isn't classic Saber.

Well I mean, almost every scene with her was almost interesting and then it got derailed by food. And he wasn't getting banned this time.

[forumghost]

Which parts? She seemed normal to me. It was Shirou that seemed to be acting different at points.

Yeah, there were a lot of times (particularly when Caren was involved) where he seemed to be acting rather OOC.
Which kinda makes sense, since Avenger was Shirou, but also kinda doesn't, because apparently Avenger=0 and had no effect on Shirou. Or something.

Well I mean, almost every scene with her was almost interesting and then it got derailed by food. And he wasn't getting banned this time.

Y so hypocritical Seiba?

[Mcjon01]

I don't know who it is, but if Archer can't sense it, it has to be a Master.
There aren't seven of us yet, but if we wanted to, we could start the fight at any time.
It seems the one watching us wants to battle, but…


"…The Command Spell reacts to other Command Spells. So that must mean that if you are a Master, you should be able to recognize other Masters when you see them. Then wouldn't that mean you should be able to identify the other Master too?"

"Yes. But a superior magus can conceal their magical energy. Even though Command Spells react to each other, they operate on magical energy. If the Master has closed his Magic Circuit, it will be hard to find him."
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I bet it was Shinji. Rin naturally assumed that if she couldn't detect them it's because they're a superior magus concealing their magical energy, which means that logically she wasn't able to detect them because they didn't have any magical energy to detect.

[Christemo]

I bet it was Shinji. Rin naturally assumed that if she couldn't detect them it's because they're a superior magus concealing their magical energy, which means that logically she wasn't able to detect them because they didn't have any magical energy to detect.

It would actually make sense. My other guess would be Kotomine.

[Kuradora]

Yeah, there were a lot of times (particularly when Caren was involved) where he seemed to be acting rather OOC.
Which kinda makes sense, since Avenger was Shirou, but also kinda doesn't, because apparently Avenger=0 and had no effect on Shirou. Or something.

My thought is that sometimes Shirou acted like Avenger, who acted like Shirou would have if he had been turned into Avenger by an ass load of curses.

[forumghost]

I bet it was Shinji. Rin naturally assumed that if she couldn't detect them it's because they're a superior magus concealing their magical energy, which means that logically she wasn't able to detect them because they didn't have any magical energy to detect.

Her mistake was in assuming that you need to be a Magus to be a Master. Hell, at the start of the war, 2 Masters at the school didn't even have Circuits, and another of the 'chosen' never figured out how to turn his on (God you suck Shirou).

[mAc Chaos]

It was Shinji, since it played into the whole "goofup girl Rin would have gotten blindsided by Shinji if Shirou didn't point out he was a Master" thing.

[DezoPenguin]

We had some big debates about some minutiae of this a few years ago but I can't remember the details at this point. I think I wondered about what Archer!Shirou remembered from life versus what he picked up when summoned as a Guardian, and how much it actually affected him. He was betrayed at the end of his life but it was doing Guardian cleanup duty over and over that pushed him over the edge? Because it had to have changed him to the point that he decided to go kill his younger self, even though that wasn't supposed to happen.

I never understood this part. Archer basically died idealistic and more or less happy about his choices, and then his Counter Guardian duties got him all depressed and suicidal because they suck.

But the ending of UBW suggests that, despite UBW basically getting him to go, "Meh, maybe being an idealistic dink's not so bad after all," says that he won't carry these lessons forward with him.

But if his memories of Counter Guardian summonings, even in diluted "book" form, were enough to turn him to "Getting my superhero on!" to "MUST DIE NOW!" then why don't his diluted memories of Grail War summoning carry back in the same way, to make him, "Oooh, therapy! Okay, I'll just be cranky and trollish from all on without the suicidal stuff"? Otherwise, it kind of reads like Nasu's just going, "You don't get to have happy epiphanies because being Archer is suffering. BWA HA HA!"

[Kuradora]

I think it's like having a library full of horror books with only a few fluffy romance novels. There's a lot of CG memories and fewer good Heaven's Feel memories, and maybe, if he only learned his lesson in UBW, there's relatively no memory of UBW route at all.

[mAc Chaos]

I never understood this part. Archer basically died idealistic and more or less happy about his choices, and then his Counter Guardian duties got him all depressed and suicidal because they suck.

But the ending of UBW suggests that, despite UBW basically getting him to go, "Meh, maybe being an idealistic dink's not so bad after all," says that he won't carry these lessons forward with him.

But if his memories of Counter Guardian summonings, even in diluted "book" form, were enough to turn him to "Getting my superhero on!" to "MUST DIE NOW!" then why don't his diluted memories of Grail War summoning carry back in the same way, to make him, "Oooh, therapy! Okay, I'll just be cranky and trollish from all on without the suicidal stuff"? Otherwise, it kind of reads like Nasu's just going, "You don't get to have happy epiphanies because being Archer is suffering. BWA HA HA!"

Technically, since Archer exists outside of time (and therefore the records) shouldn't they all be complete? The Grail War in UBW should already be in those records.

[Knick]

If he gets records from non-deployment summonings, which is debatable.

[mAc Chaos]

And I think that it wasn't so much that he wasn't going to carry the lesson but that he was still doomed to being a cleaner forever.

[DezoPenguin]

Technically, since Archer exists outside of time (and therefore the records) shouldn't they all be complete? The Grail War in UBW should already be in those records.

Which kind of skates close to paradox, since if he's already had the epiphany, then he wouldn't need to have the epiphany, and how can he be broken by the emotional impact of his Counter Guardian work when it all happens simultaneously from his outside-of-time perspective? (Hm, unless there's still a linear progression of time for EMIYA, just not necessarily in chronological order with regard to the actual summonings that take place in the "real" world(s)?