I get the feeling that even if Archer 'reads' the records, he doesn't get the full experience.
So it's totally plausible that he could have gone through the UBW record and was just like 'wtf do you mean I wasn't wrong?!'
I get the feeling that even if Archer 'reads' the records, he doesn't get the full experience.
So it's totally plausible that he could have gone through the UBW record and was just like 'wtf do you mean I wasn't wrong?!'
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
It's not a paradox if the record of the Grail War has no effect on his Heroic Spirit self since he didn't actually experience it himself and one good result out of a billion bad ones is still a reason to be pissed!Originally Posted by DezoPenguin
"Hmm there's a billion bad stuff that happened when i was summoned, but also one that says my path wasn't a mistake. I must've been really drunk that one time."
"An ideal is only an ideal after all. As long as you embrace that ideal, the friction with reality will continue to increase. So you will someday face reality and will have to pay for your compromises"
Because the sense of "experience" is what defines a memory, and Heroic Spirits don't get memories, they get knowledge.
Hm, you know, there's a way it could work.
If he receives only "knowledge," then we could say that his HS self can only access "a record of the events that happened." But that record may not itself include the subjective record of "what EMIYA was thinking or felt at the time the events happened"--a purely objective perspective as seen from outside.
Thus, his CG work would come back and he'd see "I killed some people, and some monsters." And UBW would come back and he'd know that he did stuff but would have no real idea why he rescued Shirou at the end or whatnot, and he'd have to try to sit there and reconstruct it without any real subjective understanding of what was going on or enough perspective on the events to be able to draw the same conclusion from the facts as HS EMIYA as he did while actually living them as Archer.
Quotes & Stuff...No, no stuff, just quotes
I don't have to pick and choose if Nasu does it for me. Heroic Spirits don't retain memories of being summoned, just a cumulative "body of knowledge" consisting of random, unordered "facts". That's directly stated in the VN.
My guess is it's like what Glasses-Sacchin dealt with. He had his memories, but he wasn't able recognize those memories as his.
yeah but hes saying that it shouldnt hold more weight than ubw then
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re to mcjon
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
He doesn't even know if UBW was the first time he'd been summoned into a Grail War or not. Obviously the body of knowledge isn't too useful outside of getting a broad-level sense of "Geez, they sure do call me out to kill people a lot!" and letting Heroic Spirits recognize each other.
So now, rather than being confused over why EMIYA's UBW experiences didn't erase his suicidal depression, I am now confused over how anybody without any real emotional link to events, observing them at arm's length and without context, could become suicidally depressed in the first place. Particularly when the CG job consists in the first place of "Threat to all existence! Go there and kill whatever moves!"
Does this constitute some kind of progress?
Quotes & Stuff...No, no stuff, just quotes
'Cuz the author said he wouldn't, deal with it. Logic is irrelevant in front of plot, and Japanese are super into the "beauty of transience" thing.But he earns a small answer.
The answer is only for this summoning. It is a meaningless thing that he will forget the next time he is summoned.
But there is nothing to regret.
It is something that has already been built up, something that the boy will build using all his life.
There is only one thing coming and going through his mind.
There is regret.
He does not know how many times he wished to redo things.
Heroic spirit Emiya will forever curse this end.
That and the fact that the UBW record should have always been there in the first place.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Well this the same guy who would sacrifice everything if it meant he could save people. I'd say just knowing he has been sent out to massacre people countless times would be enough to send him over the edge.
Last edited by Sandstorm77; October 22nd, 2014 at 03:32 PM.
"An ideal is only an ideal after all. As long as you embrace that ideal, the friction with reality will continue to increase. So you will someday face reality and will have to pay for your compromises"
Well, I don't know. Imagine if you signed up to donate some charity to starving kids and you got a letter from the government saying they used it to kill your family or something. You'd still be pretty mad even though you didn't see it first hand.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
If you look at it this way, the plain fact that he went on a murdering spree billions of times would still be plenty depressing even though he sees a footnote that says "but one time you figured out how to be happy" somewhere. It's not like he would experience all the feelings and thoughts that caused it to happen.
The way he talks about it all definitely sounds like he experienced it all firsthand though.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Yeah, but the difference there is, EMIYA just signed up to save people, and he pretty well knew that that meant killing stuff, including other people. And without the emotional connection to the events that lets him scream in his soul with horror as he cuts down innocent bystanders along with whatever the actual problem is, how does he avoid applying objective Kiritsugu-logic? ("Yeah, I nuked that village, but the problem didn't eat all of Asia, so good day's work there.") At that point, it just comes off as self-indulgent whining instead of something sympathetic.
Quotes & Stuff...No, no stuff, just quotes
It's like he's just throwing a temper tantrum because he didn't get exactly what he wanted or something!
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
The problem with the "but one time..." thing is that it's not that he had a happy ending once, it's that he figured out how to put all the rest of the crap into perspective. So it's more like the note on top of the billion-murdering-spree books that reads "don't worry; you figured out that none of it actually invalidates your ideals, so we're cool here."
And yeah, it's the "the way he talks about it" thing, like he experienced the bad things firsthand, but the good things, well, tough luck, he doesn't get to keep 'em. That's what left me asking the original question in the first place. The presentation is inconsistent with the explanation, and the explanation isn't consistent with itself.
And yeah, what Siriel said, as well.
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The point of my post is that throwing a temper tantrum because he doesn't like the way it went down is exactly what Archer is doing. Even he admits that he's just taking out his frustration on Shirou.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
The whole point of him being a CG though was to escape that cycle.
It was like Kiritsugu sacrificing everything to achieve the impossible. His ideal was never about damage control and compromising.
Instead he just Kiritsugu'd on an even larger scale.
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I mean, a normal person wouldn't care about saving everyone, even the bad guys causing the problem, anyway.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
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