Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Araya's Dry Cleaner]

The Root/Spiral of Origin is not intrinsically linked to magecraft at all.

There are many, many theoretically ways of reaching the Root. Hell, Ryougi Shiki was born out of the Root with a link to it, and she did not have to do anything or learn any magecraft.
The House of Tohsaka has been attempting to reach the Root with martial arts (likely via the state of absolute tranquility/zen or something along those lines).
KnK discussed that all of the World's mysticism and traditions can trace their origins back to the Root. Basically if you studied any discipline to the extreme, you can potentially hit the Root.

It is not that hard to comprehend that a Magic was a means to reach the Root.

Let's take Araya for example.
His thesis was that through the repetition of human lives in his distorted boundary field, he could explore the meaning of life/death and reach the Root.
Some aspects of the boundary field, e.g. the Moebius Space, already bordering on Magic.
If he actually succeeded, his boundary field magecraft would truly quality as a True Magic.

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I dont think therei s any proof outside of theories for the FSN stuff

of course that raises the question of how anyone can obtain magic anyway if its so smart

Mahoyo is essentially a deep dive into Magic.
Most of the stuff you heard here about Magic came from like 3 info-dump scenes from Mahoyo.

[Araya's Dry Cleaner]

I thought that all true magic came as a consequence of touching the root ... and not vice versa

It could go both ways.

You could invent a spell so extreme/potent, and it lands you at the door of the Root.
OR you could stumble upon the Root, and it gives you the Akashic Record and you become a Magician anyways.

Basically if you achieve ultimate power, you reach the Root. Or if you stumble upon the Root, you get ultimate power.
Either way, you achieve some degree of godhood. That's why most Magicians have just disappeared.

[Jesse1089]

then...let's say...ideally...leaving aside the counterforce...if the great holy grail opens the hole to the outside of the world and it is within this place that the root or spiral of origin is found ... wouldn't it be possible that at that precise moment when you are inside this place you can obtain a true magic? Although it is said that the root is still far away...

[Araya's Dry Cleaner]

then...let's say...ideally...leaving aside the counterforce...if the great holy grail opens the hole to the outside of the world and it is within this place that the root or spiral of origin is found ... wouldn't it be possible that at that precise moment when you are inside this place you can obtain a true magic? Although it is said that the root is still far away...

Theoretically, yes.

We know the Winter Saint/Greater Grail is legit, as it was able to pull the true Akashic Records to make the Servants.
The connection is real, and if the Greater Grail is able to punch through unimpeded then a path to the Root can be made.

The theory is sound, because we know the Einzberns have done this before. The Third exists.

[Jesse1089]

I wonder if it was possible that within this place called the outside of the world there was something else besides the root and the throne of heroes...

[Escavalien]

Like, God?

[madarra]

The "Seat of Gods" that Nero yanked Venus out of during the ending of Extella?

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Or do we just assume thats a sub-part of the throne the same way Avalon is a sub-part of the reverse side

[Jesse1089]

I don't know...maybe...some entity? who rules over that place including the root...

[Escavalien]

I feel like the fact the counter force exists suggests that it's a system without any ruler like that. It kind of feels like an implied balancing system that works autonomously without an outside-the-system overseer.

[Jesse1089]

yes...it makes sense...before I used to think that in the holy grail war the hole that was opened was the direct path to the root, in other words I thought that the root was immediately behind the hole...but the concept that there is an existential plane where the root is, it is something new for me and makes me wonder, what else is there?

[AAM1232]

I feel like the fact the counter force exists suggests that it's a system without any ruler like that. It kind of feels like an implied balancing system that works autonomously without an outside-the-system overseer.

There's a reason it's also called the collective unconscious of man.

[Escavalien]

There's a reason it's also called the collective unconscious of man.

Reminds me of Lelouch using his Geass on the collective unconscious of man in CG.

[Jesse1089]

That leads me to wonder why the counterforce didn't act? I mean a hole to the other side was opened by the grail with the intention of extracting magical energy and also reaching the root...


Or maybe it did? through the teenager shirou emiya?

[TomPen94]

Maybe it didn't need to act, precisely because of Emiya Shirou.

[Altima of the Gates]

I believe that was the intent, but we will never know because it never succeeded through the 5 wars.

However, you can get a taste of it through Black Sakura.

The reason Rin needed the Jewel Sword to fight Black Sakura was because Black Sakura was connected to the "hole" and was siphoning mana from the other side.

Its not like she lost that connection though, it still says that she is connected to the other side.
Its just not elaborated further exactly why that is, with only vague "she's still a grail, partly".

Mr. "I like to put things in the narrative that make people ask questions instead of answer them" rearing its ugly head. I'm kinda surprised nobody pressed the question before and only asked about why the CF didn't intervene when its obvious he would have said "because the worst didn't happen yet".

[Byegod]

With how true magic is defined, if only 1 and 5 were the root derived ones

Then how do 2-3-4 fit with the definition, or mesh with the definition of 'outside the reach of magecraft' since at least you could say the 1st and 5th were not the intended results and more the magecraft to reach the root, then you get the magic from turning back

but if those were not from touching the root then wouldnt you need to have magecraft to get it directly?

[Mementore]

Nah, every Magic is derived from the Root, as stated in Mahoyo and implied many times in other works.

The difference is just in the reason for reaching the Root.

[Araya's Dry Cleaner]

Its not like she lost that connection though, it still says that she is connected to the other side.
Its just not elaborated further exactly why that is, with only vague "she's still a grail, partly".

Mr. "I like to put things in the narrative that make people ask questions instead of answer them" rearing its ugly head. I'm kinda surprised nobody pressed the question before and only asked about why the CF didn't intervene when its obvious he would have said "because the worst didn't happen yet".

The Counter Force does not give a shit about Sakura, just like how it does not give a shit about the Winter Saint.

Accessing what is beyond does not trigger the Counter Force. Sakura was not close to actually going beyond and reaching into Akashic Records.

The Counter Force is being triggered by the threat of Angra Mainyu being incarnated, and possible reaching into the hole.

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With how true magic is defined, if only 1 and 5 were the root derived ones

Then how do 2-3-4 fit with the definition, or mesh with the definition of 'outside the reach of magecraft' since at least you could say the 1st and 5th were not the intended results and more the magecraft to reach the root, then you get the magic from turning back

but if those were not from touching the root then wouldnt you need to have magecraft to get it directly?

You are thinking about this in a dichotomous way.

The Magic was always there, you just found it through one way, but not another.

Let's take the Second for example.

Zelretch was able to realize it through gem magic/some principle of diffraction. Kojiro Sasaki was able to stumble upon its principles through martial arts in a completely unrelated way while trying to cut down a swallow.

The Root can be the goal, or the Root can be the reward. It does not really matter.

[Jesse1089]

the throne of heroes is part of the root? Or is separate from it but in the same place in the outside world?

[Ideofago]

Separate.