Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Reign]

Her last profile bit opened today.



What we get from this is that both Pretenders we have so far are hybrids, and one of them only gained the Pretender Class when she became a hybrid.

Does this mean Oblivion Correction would let Avengers remember individual summons too?

[Petrikow]

2 questions:
1. In terms of Ciel, she only has regeneration, so long as Roa has reincarnation, right? In other words, in the event(s) that Roa's reincarnation is broken, so goes Ciel's regeneration, correct?
2. IIRC, there's an in-joke that, generally speaking, mages are terrible at modern computer technology. How is the average Church agent in this regard?

1. That seems like an awfully specific way of thinking about this issue. The reason for Ciel's immortality is thusly: Roa = Ciel, Roa = Alive, thus Ciel = Alive. Even if her body perishes, as long as Roa is still around, so is she, and thus the World repairs her as to maintain this paradigm. So yes, as long as Roa keeps reincarnating, Ciel will remain immortal. But let's imagine a scenario in which Roa for whatever reason manages to acquire another type of 'perfect' immortality. In that case, Ciel would still be kept alive by the World, even if Roa isn't reincarnating.

2. The 'mages being luddites' almost seems like a very Tohsaka-specific trait at this point. One ought not pay it too much mind. In either way, supposing perhaps that we see the MA as a collection of technology-hating luddites, then their opposite in the Church do seem rather poised on the other side of the fence. The Church are heavily on the side of Humanity. They oppose everything that stands against it, and that includes all Mystery. Naturally they would be adept in technology.

Tsukihime R

The best example that can be given is that the 7th Holy Scripture is some kind of holy-techno literal armored vehicle now.

[NO U Sword]

Is the 'third element' here just the translation for 'third magic'? And what does Gil mean that it's a curse; is that just referring to Angra's influence or just in general?

It is actually something entirely different, and I sometimes wonder if it is an idea that is entirely abandoned.

There is the Fire, Earth, Water, Wind, and Ether classification of 5 great Elements.

There is also this obscure thing that I have only seen in Fate.

Archer mentioned Soul as the Second Element, and the Spirit as the Third Element. The Third Element in your quote actually refers to this, the Spirit.

It also appears when Rin binds Shirou to her.

Auftrag wird ersetzt.
Das dritte Element wird als das erste gekennzeichnet.
Das Fleisch geht einmal zum Teil des Sternes zurück.
Sie fliegen，hoch，schnell，weit，zu morgen.
Nie zurück schauen
Es gibt niedrig,　ist langsam,　ist nah
und in die Vergangenheit.
Nie vorher betreten.

[Rafflesiac]

1. That seems like an awfully specific way of thinking about this issue. The reason for Ciel's immortality is thusly: Roa = Ciel, Roa = Alive, thus Ciel = Alive. Even if her body perishes, as long as Roa is still around, so is she, and thus the World repairs her as to maintain this paradigm. So yes, as long as Roa keeps reincarnating, Ciel will remain immortal. But let's imagine a scenario in which Roa for whatever reason manages to acquire another type of 'perfect' immortality. In that case, Ciel would still be kept alive by the World, even if Roa isn't reincarnating.

2. The 'mages being luddites' almost seems like a very Tohsaka-specific trait at this point. One ought not pay it too much mind. In either way, supposing perhaps that we see the MA as a collection of technology-hating luddites, then their opposite in the Church do seem rather poised on the other side of the fence. The Church are heavily on the side of Humanity. They oppose everything that stands against it, and that includes all Mystery. Naturally they would be adept in technology.

Tsukihime R

The best example that can be given is that the 7th Holy Scripture is some kind of holy-techno literal armored vehicle now.

Elite squadrons of Church shitposters and hackers

[Bugs]

Hansa is also a literal cyborg, as another example.

Whether or not this is the norm, I can't say.

[Zork Knight]

Hansa is also a literal cyborg, as another example.

Whether or not this is the norm, I can't say.

Can't believe the Void Dragon is sleeping beneath the Vatican

[LegalLoliLover]

1. That seems like an awfully specific way of thinking about this issue. The reason for Ciel's immortality is thusly: Roa = Ciel, Roa = Alive, thus Ciel = Alive. Even if her body perishes, as long as Roa is still around, so is she, and thus the World repairs her as to maintain this paradigm. So yes, as long as Roa keeps reincarnating, Ciel will remain immortal. But let's imagine a scenario in which Roa for whatever reason manages to acquire another type of 'perfect' immortality. In that case, Ciel would still be kept alive by the World, even if Roa isn't reincarnating.

2. The 'mages being luddites' almost seems like a very Tohsaka-specific trait at this point. One ought not pay it too much mind. In either way, supposing perhaps that we see the MA as a collection of technology-hating luddites, then their opposite in the Church do seem rather poised on the other side of the fence. The Church are heavily on the side of Humanity. They oppose everything that stands against it, and that includes all Mystery. Naturally they would be adept in technology.

Tsukihime R

The best example that can be given is that the 7th Holy Scripture is some kind of holy-techno literal armored vehicle now.

1. I should clarify that, when I say that Roa's reincarnation is broken, I mean that he's dead. I just try not to use that word because Roa, or rather the Tsukihime series, seems to give hacks for him to recover from even that, such as "assistance" from DAA 13 (Tatari) in the original and from DAA 12 (that one mentioned in Type Lumina in spoken dialogue, but for some reason, not written in the English translation) in the remake.
2. So... None of that "God will protect my account" and then proceeds to use a hilariously simple password?

[Byegod]

1. That seems like an awfully specific way of thinking about this issue. The reason for Ciel's immortality is thusly: Roa = Ciel, Roa = Alive, thus Ciel = Alive. Even if her body perishes, as long as Roa is still around, so is she, and thus the World repairs her as to maintain this paradigm. So yes, as long as Roa keeps reincarnating, Ciel will remain immortal. But let's imagine a scenario in which Roa for whatever reason manages to acquire another type of 'perfect' immortality. In that case, Ciel would still be kept alive by the World, even if Roa isn't reincarnating.

2. The 'mages being luddites' almost seems like a very Tohsaka-specific trait at this point. One ought not pay it too much mind. In either way, supposing perhaps that we see the MA as a collection of technology-hating luddites, then their opposite in the Church do seem rather poised on the other side of the fence. The Church are heavily on the side of Humanity. They oppose everything that stands against it, and that includes all Mystery. Naturally they would be adept in technology.

Tsukihime R

The best example that can be given is that the 7th Holy Scripture is some kind of holy-techno literal armored vehicle now.

Cool to see someone else of this opinion, though didnt the old guy in apoc also be a luddite as well as case files mentioning said luddite stuff

But yeah it aint heavily supported to the degree it emphasizes?

But for my own question, I'm looking for old lectures on mystery, like the stuff such as 'the greater mystery wins' as didnt that come up once when mentioning the whole 'unstoppable force' vs 'immovable object' type deal?

[Arete]

It is actually something entirely different, and I sometimes wonder if it is an idea that is entirely abandoned.

There is the Fire, Earth, Water, Wind, and Ether classification of 5 great Elements.

There is also this obscure thing that I have only seen in Fate.

Archer mentioned Soul as the Second Element, and the Spirit as the Third Element. The Third Element in your quote actually refers to this, the Spirit.

It also appears when Rin binds Shirou to her.

Ah right thanks. Can't say I recall it being brought up elsewhere so you're probably right in it being an abandoned idea. Unless it was something of a prototype for the 'mind/soul/body' categories. I suppose this element is why they can go into spirit forms, though on a separate note, didn't Gil have an incarnated body? Did he ever go into spirit form in FSN?

[Comun]

Hilarious that this answer became confusing due to translation problem because the original question was about translation problems.

Recap on what I personally use, please keep in mind it's not universal translations.

Elements (not numbered): Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Ether, Imaginary, Void

Substances (numbered and ordered): Body, Soul, Mind, not yet mentioned, Ether, Devils

[Red Dingo]

Cool to see someone else of this opinion, though didnt the old guy in apoc also be a luddite as well as case files mentioning said luddite stuff

But yeah it aint heavily supported to the degree it emphasizes?

Something I've noticed is that mages of a very old and/or aristocratic pedigree, prefer to eschew technology as much as possible in favor of what their craft can replicate at least in their private lives. Mages of younger generations are more open to combining modern conveniences with magecraft. Tokiomi, the scion of the Tohsaka bloodline, would rather use his specialized gem-mystic code to communicate with his remote agents than using modern phone and satellite networks. Touko, however, who might be considered the first generation of cadet branch to the Aozaki line, utilized computer technology as part of the calibration of her dolls. The orthodox mage is a luddite, the reformed mage is open to modern avenues, the heretical mage kill will blow up buildings with C4. When it comes to the public life, even the orthodox mage must capitulate in order to uphold Concealment of the Mystics.

But for my own question, I'm looking for old lectures on mystery, like the stuff such as 'the greater mystery wins' as didnt that come up once when mentioning the whole 'unstoppable force' vs 'immovable object' type deal?

If you consider every Mystery a Foundation in itself, it becomes a question of which argument the World rules in favor of. Physical Law of the current age has the greatest sway but the closer to the Root a thing is, the greater its Mystery. This is the mages seek to overcome by generationally cultivating their personal Mysteries until they attain True Magic. In the spectrum between those two extremes is the question of the right place, right time, and the compatibility of a Magical System with those factors as well as the amount of magical energy one may supply. Case in point: human fighting off even a weak Servant is like a human fighting off Jetfighter. Yet in the Atlantis Lostbelt, the compatibility between Animusphere Magecraft and the environment allowed a human to defeat both Servants and God Machines. So it what an "immovable object" and the "unstoppable force" are founded on would determine the outcome. Neither have any business existing according to our current model of the universe. But suppose an "immovable object" was founded on a Nordic mystic while an "unstoppable force" was founded on a Hindu one. Assuming both were equal in energy output, the "immovable object" would usually win out if the clash took place in Scandinavia while the "unstoppable force" would normally prevail in the Indian Subcontinent. Mystery, unlike physics, fluctuates in value.

TL;DR the conflict in itself is rubbish in the realm of science but magically the outcome is mutable to context.

[NO U Sword]

Hilarious that this answer became confusing due to translation problem because the original question was about translation problems.

Recap on what I personally use, please keep in mind it's not universal translations.

Elements (not numbered): Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Ether, Imaginary, Void

Substances (numbered and ordered): Body, Soul, Mind, not yet mentioned, Ether, Devils

There is no "wrong" translation per se, because the original words used were very similar and the context was subtle.

Ether being present in both of them as the Fifth just further adds to the confusion.

[NO U Sword]

Actually the phrasing is slightly different.

Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Ether, Imaginary, Void = 元素

Body, Soul, Mind, not yet mentioned, Ether, Devils = 要素

- - - Updated - - -

LOL I think I figured out why everyone is confused.

我々は基本的に霊体だと言っただろう。故に食事は第二（たましい）、ないし第三要素（せいしん ）となる。
I told you we are basically spirits. Therefore, our meals consist of souls and mental constituents.

This is the part where Archer explains the Soul and Mind being the Second and Third Substance.

Notice how the Mirror Moon translation elected to omit the ruby texts.

The lore nuance was actually lost because of the choice. I always wondered where this Substance business was coming from, it has been in Stay Night text all along.

[NO U Sword]

But for my own question, I'm looking for old lectures on mystery, like the stuff such as 'the greater mystery wins' as didnt that come up once when mentioning the whole 'unstoppable force' vs 'immovable object' type deal?

Not necessarily.
This clash always gives me a boner.
Nasu's big brain idea at its zenith.

[Byegod]

Got a timestamp for the relevent quotes?

Plus isnt it sometimes firepower correlated with a mystery's strength? dont quote me on that or any of what i say

[NO U Sword]

You have to experience the whole thing with your whole body.

[NO U Sword]

Plus isnt it sometimes firepower correlated with a mystery's strength? dont quote me on that or any of what i say

Not necessarily, and that is in terms of both Noble Phantasm and magecraft.

For Noble Phantasms, the Classification (e.g. Anti-Army, Anti-World etc) is probably a better predictor of firepower, rather than Mystery. For example, Striking Death Flight is more "powerful" than Piercing Death Thorn, since Striking Death Flight is literally the max power mode. However, no one is going to argue that Piercing Death Thorn possess a greater Mystery/Concept.

In terms of magecraft, most of the "borderline on Magic" or "a shard of Magic" stuff are actually not that great in battle. I mean, they are cool and all, but some of them literally get hosed down by beams.

[Arete]

Hilarious that this answer became confusing due to translation problem because the original question was about translation problems.

Recap on what I personally use, please keep in mind it's not universal translations.

Elements (not numbered): Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Ether, Imaginary, Void

Substances (numbered and ordered): Body, Soul, Mind, not yet mentioned, Ether, Devils

Actually the phrasing is slightly different.

Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Ether, Imaginary, Void = 元素

Body, Soul, Mind, not yet mentioned, Ether, Devils = 要素

- - - Updated - - -

LOL I think I figured out why everyone is confused.



This is the part where Archer explains the Soul and Mind being the Second and Third Substance.

Notice how the Mirror Moon translation elected to omit the ruby texts.

The lore nuance was actually lost because of the choice. I always wondered where this Substance business was coming from, it has been in Stay Night text all along.

Ah so that's where the confusion lies. So from what I understand a normal person will have those first three substances, while a Servant (excluding ones like Artoria) would have only the second and third, and it is these first three substances that they explore in more depth in the EXTRA series. Is that correct?

[AAM1232]

Food's new sock being helpful huh?

[Byegod]

huh?

I dont get it?