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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #156741
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Papa Orochi is dead by the time of Yamato Takeru and we know that because Takeru uses the sword taken out of Orochi's guts. But Saburou is roughly a whole century older, so while the timing feels too tight, it's technically not impossible for Saburou to have been punished by the full-bodied Orochi instead of one of the detached heads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    Some pantheons are depicted as Tamamo, while others are only potentially Tamamo.

  2. #156742
    祖 Ancestor Paulie25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Papa Orochi is dead by the time of Yamato Takeru and we know that because Takeru uses the sword taken out of Orochi's guts. But Saburou is roughly a whole century older, so while the timing feels too tight, it's technically not impossible for Saburou to have been punished by the full-bodied Orochi instead of one of the detached heads.
    I will also mention this little passage from his NP description if this means anything:
    Spoiler:
    By revealing his True Name, Assassin is able to transform into a monstrous fusion of human and giant serpent. Using the curse cast by the Great God Ibuki, who is also known by the name Yamata-no-Orochi, Assassin is bestowed the power to mutate his body into one optimized for battle.


    Spoiler:
    This would imply that the curse was cast by Yamato-no-Orochi, but I think everything else kinda implies it’s Ibuki considering they seem to be really close and know each other. Ibuki is also the Elder Sister implying she would be before Saburou. I also get kind of thrown off because Takeru only recognizes Ibuki’s aura and doesn’t recognize her on sight. I’m not very familiar with the legend though so I guess it just means they never met face to face? Sorry I’m pretty bad about this part of Fate/Japanese lore…

  3. #156743
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    So Saburo's legend is actually older than Takeru? That's unexpected.



  4. #156744
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie25 View Post
    Spoiler:
    This would imply that the curse was cast by Yamato-no-Orochi, but I think everything else kinda implies it’s Ibuki considering they seem to be really close and know each other. Ibuki is also the Elder Sister implying she would be before Saburou. I also get kind of thrown off because Takeru only recognizes Ibuki’s aura and doesn’t recognize her on sight. I’m not very familiar with the legend though so I guess it just means they never met face to face? Sorry I’m pretty bad about this part of Fate/Japanese lore…
    I just checked Dorothea's route to see what was going on with Ibukidouji and it was surprisingly in line with the Kouga Saburou myth as I know it. Here's a summary of the legend.

    Spoiler:
    The prestigious Kouga Yoritane governed 30 lands. He had 3 sons creatively named Tarou (means "eldest son"), Jirou (means "second son"), and Saburou (means "third son"). He died not long after 70, leaving 15 lands to the competent Saburou, 8 to Tarou, and 7 to Jirou. During the mourning rites for his father's second anniversary, he met his cousin Kasugahime and they soon got married.

    One day, Kasugahime was kidnapped by a tengu. The three brothers searched all over their territories and found her in a cave in Mt. Ibuki. They rescue her, but she forgot her mirror inside the cave. Saburou goes back to pick it up, and his older brothers take this opportunity to close the cave's entrance, locking him inside. Now the brothers can steal Saburou's territories. Jirou tries to steal his wife too, but Kasugahime doesn't do anything Jirou says, so he tries to kill her, but she gets saved by the maid and escapes to their other relatives' household.

    Anyways, Saburou is in the cave, walks deeper inside since that's the way that isn't blocked and finds a huge underground land of the dead. He finds the place is ruled by Ibuki Daimyoujin (Yamata no Orochi), marries the god's youngest daughter Yuiman-hime, and has a really happy life hunting with his snake wife every day.

    After 13 years and 6 months of having a good time, Saburou suddenly remembers he was already married to Kasuga before marrying Yuiman. He tells Yuiman that their marriage was invalid and that he must return to the world of the living, but Yuiman chooses to follow him and live as his secret second wife. Ibuki Daimyoujin gives him 1000 deer liver buns and he manages to leave the land of the dead by climbing upward while keeping himself fed with one bun a day.

    Back home, he sees humans, which reminds him that his current half-snake body made to match his snake god wife is very much not what humans look like. He and Yuiman hide in a Buddha temple built by Yoridane and ask the (gods disguised as) monks to figure out a way to give him his human body back. One ritual later, he's human again and reunites with Kasuga. The reunited couple goes on a trip to China to learn divine superpowers and enshrine themselves as gods after returning to Japan. Yuiman also reveals herself and is met with welcomes from Kasuga, and Saburou lives happily ever after as the divine husband of two divine wives.


    Then what FSR gives us is:
    DLC
    - Saburou took the curse of Ibuki Daimyoujin, who is directly called Yamata no Orochi, and Saburou himself even words it as Ibuki's father in the DLC. This works with the severed head daughters already existing separately because the myth is set in an underworld. It allows an already-dead Orochi to coexist with his not-yet-dead heads.
    - There's a one-off line in a Digression where Saburou mentions having wives, acknowledging that Kasuga and Yuiman are a thing in TM.
    - Saburou calls Ibukidouji "Elder Sister", which is an appropriate title as Ibukidouji would be his actual sister-in-law since Yuiman is Orochi's youngest daughter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    Some pantheons are depicted as Tamamo, while others are only potentially Tamamo.

  5. #156745
    祖 Ancestor Paulie25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I just checked Dorothea's route to see what was going on with Ibukidouji and it was surprisingly in line with the Kouga Saburou myth as I know it. Here's a summary of the legend.

    Spoiler:
    The prestigious Kouga Yoritane governed 30 lands. He had 3 sons creatively named Tarou (means "eldest son"), Jirou (means "second son"), and Saburou (means "third son"). He died not long after 70, leaving 15 lands to the competent Saburou, 8 to Tarou, and 7 to Jirou. During the mourning rites for his father's second anniversary, he met his cousin Kasugahime and they soon got married.

    One day, Kasugahime was kidnapped by a tengu. The three brothers searched all over their territories and found her in a cave in Mt. Ibuki. They rescue her, but she forgot her mirror inside the cave. Saburou goes back to pick it up, and his older brothers take this opportunity to close the cave's entrance, locking him inside. Now the brothers can steal Saburou's territories. Jirou tries to steal his wife too, but Kasugahime doesn't do anything Jirou says, so he tries to kill her, but she gets saved by the maid and escapes to their other relatives' household.

    Anyways, Saburou is in the cave, walks deeper inside since that's the way that isn't blocked and finds a huge underground land of the dead. He finds the place is ruled by Ibuki Daimyoujin (Yamata no Orochi), marries the god's youngest daughter Yuiman-hime, and has a really happy life hunting with his snake wife every day.

    After 13 years and 6 months of having a good time, Saburou suddenly remembers he was already married to Kasuga before marrying Yuiman. He tells Yuiman that their marriage was invalid and that he must return to the world of the living, but Yuiman chooses to follow him and live as his secret second wife. Ibuki Daimyoujin gives him 1000 deer liver buns and he manages to leave the land of the dead by climbing upward while keeping himself fed with one bun a day.

    Back home, he sees humans, which reminds him that his current half-snake body made to match his snake god wife is very much not what humans look like. He and Yuiman hide in a Buddha temple built by Yoridane and ask the (gods disguised as) monks to figure out a way to give him his human body back. One ritual later, he's human again and reunites with Kasuga. The reunited couple goes on a trip to China to learn divine superpowers and enshrine themselves as gods after returning to Japan. Yuiman also reveals herself and is met with welcomes from Kasuga, and Saburou lives happily ever after as the divine husband of two divine wives.


    Then what FSR gives us is:
    DLC
    - Saburou took the curse of Ibuki Daimyoujin, who is directly called Yamata no Orochi, and Saburou himself even words it as Ibuki's father in the DLC. This works with the severed head daughters already existing separately because the myth is set in an underworld. It allows an already-dead Orochi to coexist with his not-yet-dead heads.
    - There's a one-off line in a Digression where Saburou mentions having wives, acknowledging that Kasuga and Yuiman are a thing in TM.
    - Saburou calls Ibukidouji "Elder Sister", which is an appropriate title as Ibukidouji would be his actual sister-in-law since Yuiman is Orochi's youngest daughter.
    Thanks for the history lesson Comun, that clears up a lot of my questions and I appreciate ya taking the time to write all that out. I pretty much get it now then, I really like learning about these legends so this is nice to have for future discussion.

  6. #156746
    Servant Conception Extraordinaire MoonCell's Avatar
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    Thank you for the answer, Comun! This telling of the legend also helps to understand how Koga Saburo can also be Takeminakata. He is indeed the son of Orochi/Okuninushi, a son-in-law.

  7. #156747
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kirishima's Avatar
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    What a beautiful story, see kids, it's okay to be inhuman and it's okay to have multiple wives, you can find love no matter what.

  8. #156748
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I just checked Dorothea's route to see what was going on with Ibukidouji and it was surprisingly in line with the Kouga Saburou myth as I know it. Here's a summary of the legend.

    Spoiler:
    The prestigious Kouga Yoritane governed 30 lands. He had 3 sons creatively named Tarou (means "eldest son"), Jirou (means "second son"), and Saburou (means "third son"). He died not long after 70, leaving 15 lands to the competent Saburou, 8 to Tarou, and 7 to Jirou. During the mourning rites for his father's second anniversary, he met his cousin Kasugahime and they soon got married.

    One day, Kasugahime was kidnapped by a tengu. The three brothers searched all over their territories and found her in a cave in Mt. Ibuki. They rescue her, but she forgot her mirror inside the cave. Saburou goes back to pick it up, and his older brothers take this opportunity to close the cave's entrance, locking him inside. Now the brothers can steal Saburou's territories. Jirou tries to steal his wife too, but Kasugahime doesn't do anything Jirou says, so he tries to kill her, but she gets saved by the maid and escapes to their other relatives' household.

    Anyways, Saburou is in the cave, walks deeper inside since that's the way that isn't blocked and finds a huge underground land of the dead. He finds the place is ruled by Ibuki Daimyoujin (Yamata no Orochi), marries the god's youngest daughter Yuiman-hime, and has a really happy life hunting with his snake wife every day.

    After 13 years and 6 months of having a good time, Saburou suddenly remembers he was already married to Kasuga before marrying Yuiman. He tells Yuiman that their marriage was invalid and that he must return to the world of the living, but Yuiman chooses to follow him and live as his secret second wife. Ibuki Daimyoujin gives him 1000 deer liver buns and he manages to leave the land of the dead by climbing upward while keeping himself fed with one bun a day.

    Back home, he sees humans, which reminds him that his current half-snake body made to match his snake god wife is very much not what humans look like. He and Yuiman hide in a Buddha temple built by Yoridane and ask the (gods disguised as) monks to figure out a way to give him his human body back. One ritual later, he's human again and reunites with Kasuga. The reunited couple goes on a trip to China to learn divine superpowers and enshrine themselves as gods after returning to Japan. Yuiman also reveals herself and is met with welcomes from Kasuga, and Saburou lives happily ever after as the divine husband of two divine wives.


    Then what FSR gives us is:
    DLC
    - Saburou took the curse of Ibuki Daimyoujin, who is directly called Yamata no Orochi, and Saburou himself even words it as Ibuki's father in the DLC. This works with the severed head daughters already existing separately because the myth is set in an underworld. It allows an already-dead Orochi to coexist with his not-yet-dead heads.
    - There's a one-off line in a Digression where Saburou mentions having wives, acknowledging that Kasuga and Yuiman are a thing in TM.
    - Saburou calls Ibukidouji "Elder Sister", which is an appropriate title as Ibukidouji would be his actual sister-in-law since Yuiman is Orochi's youngest daughter.
    Thanks for the summary. Mofo won hard in life. Im jealous. I want a snek waifu too

    Tho what variant of the legend mentions yuiman? I cant find anything about her

    Edit: NVM. Found it, so it was from Kōga Ninja-kō
    Last edited by Reverse_side98; February 12th, 2024 at 03:03 AM.

  9. #156749
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I just checked Dorothea's route to see what was going on with Ibukidouji and it was surprisingly in line with the Kouga Saburou myth as I know it. Here's a summary of the legend.

    Spoiler:
    The prestigious Kouga Yoritane governed 30 lands. He had 3 sons creatively named Tarou (means "eldest son"), Jirou (means "second son"), and Saburou (means "third son"). He died not long after 70, leaving 15 lands to the competent Saburou, 8 to Tarou, and 7 to Jirou. During the mourning rites for his father's second anniversary, he met his cousin Kasugahime and they soon got married.

    One day, Kasugahime was kidnapped by a tengu. The three brothers searched all over their territories and found her in a cave in Mt. Ibuki. They rescue her, but she forgot her mirror inside the cave. Saburou goes back to pick it up, and his older brothers take this opportunity to close the cave's entrance, locking him inside. Now the brothers can steal Saburou's territories. Jirou tries to steal his wife too, but Kasugahime doesn't do anything Jirou says, so he tries to kill her, but she gets saved by the maid and escapes to their other relatives' household.

    Anyways, Saburou is in the cave, walks deeper inside since that's the way that isn't blocked and finds a huge underground land of the dead. He finds the place is ruled by Ibuki Daimyoujin (Yamata no Orochi), marries the god's youngest daughter Yuiman-hime, and has a really happy life hunting with his snake wife every day.

    After 13 years and 6 months of having a good time, Saburou suddenly remembers he was already married to Kasuga before marrying Yuiman. He tells Yuiman that their marriage was invalid and that he must return to the world of the living, but Yuiman chooses to follow him and live as his secret second wife. Ibuki Daimyoujin gives him 1000 deer liver buns and he manages to leave the land of the dead by climbing upward while keeping himself fed with one bun a day.

    Back home, he sees humans, which reminds him that his current half-snake body made to match his snake god wife is very much not what humans look like. He and Yuiman hide in a Buddha temple built by Yoridane and ask the (gods disguised as) monks to figure out a way to give him his human body back. One ritual later, he's human again and reunites with Kasuga. The reunited couple goes on a trip to China to learn divine superpowers and enshrine themselves as gods after returning to Japan. Yuiman also reveals herself and is met with welcomes from Kasuga, and Saburou lives happily ever after as the divine husband of two divine wives.


    Then what FSR gives us is:
    DLC
    - Saburou took the curse of Ibuki Daimyoujin, who is directly called Yamata no Orochi, and Saburou himself even words it as Ibuki's father in the DLC. This works with the severed head daughters already existing separately because the myth is set in an underworld. It allows an already-dead Orochi to coexist with his not-yet-dead heads.
    - There's a one-off line in a Digression where Saburou mentions having wives, acknowledging that Kasuga and Yuiman are a thing in TM.
    - Saburou calls Ibukidouji "Elder Sister", which is an appropriate title as Ibukidouji would be his actual sister-in-law since Yuiman is Orochi's youngest daughter.
    This was surprisingly wholesome for a guy like him. Ibuki as a sister-in-law makes things even funnier.
    I want to see Chiyome's reaction to this.

  10. #156750
    On the Holy Night Reign's Avatar
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    Wow I expected his relationship with Orochi to be a lot more antagonistic.

  11. #156751
    The only thing i cant find is Ibuki getting associated with the Yuiman kingdom and Yuiman-hime being her daughter. What version is that from?

  12. #156752
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    The general beats of the story are taken from Shintoshuu's Suwa Engi no Koto, with some supplementary information mentioned in Fate/ itself. In Suwa Engi, the ruler of Yuimankoku and father of Yuiman-hime goes by the name Koubiou. And Kasugahime's kidnapping happening in Mt. Ibuki is a thing there too.

    The entity that cursed Saburou being Yamata-no-Orochi is a thing framed as common knowledge in Fate/Grand Order, so it theoretically must have an accessible source. Keyword: theoritically. Unfortunately, the only source Sakurai's lists in Chiyome's materials is a document called Renpan Ken no Koto (連判堅之事). Now here's the funny part: if you google "連判堅之事", you'll only find two results on the whole internet, both of which are online profiles of Chiyome's FGO character. So either the mats have a major typo or Sakurai made up a source.

    Putting Kouga Saburou and Ibuki Daimyoujin together on OldestSearch also gets FGO as the first result, so I think we can consider ourselves officially bamboozled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    Some pantheons are depicted as Tamamo, while others are only potentially Tamamo.

  13. #156753
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    The general beats of the story are taken from Shintoshuu's Suwa Engi no Koto, with some supplementary information mentioned in Fate/ itself. In Suwa Engi, the ruler of Yuimankoku and father of Yuiman-hime goes by the name Koubiou. And Kasugahime's kidnapping happening in Mt. Ibuki is a thing there too.

    The entity that cursed Saburou being Yamata-no-Orochi is a thing framed as common knowledge in Fate/Grand Order, so it theoretically must have an accessible source. Keyword: theoretically. Unfortunately, the only source Sakurai's lists in Chiyome's materials is a document called Renpan Ken no Koto (連判堅之事). Now here's the funny part: if you google "連判堅之事", you'll only find two results on the whole internet, both of which are online profiles of Chiyome's FGO character. So either the mats have a major typo or Sakurai made up a source.

    Putting Kouga Saburou and Ibuki Daimyoujin together on OldestSearch also gets FGO as the first result, so I think we can consider ourselves officially bamboozled.
    ...So is the association between Ibuki Daimyoujin and Yamata-no-Orochi another thing FGO made up?

  14. #156754
    No, the association is in a Shuten Douji text at the very least.

  15. #156755
    On the Holy Night Reign's Avatar
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    Relatedly, so when Saburo is deified at the end of the story he becomes Takeminakata? SR's localization has him say he's "related to" Takeminakata which makes it sound more like a familial thing. Maybe "associated with" would have been more appropriate?

  16. #156756
    I don’t know whether I should use the Tsukihime thread for this question or not but in the Ciel Route true ending where Arcueid confiscated everyone in the city away, how did no one notice their own self being sucked up when Arcueid initially used Event Storage? From my understanding, Arcueid draws everything closer to her using gravity until it touches the black vortex, so was literally everyone asleep for them to not notice the gravity?

    Or do I just not know how Event Storage works?

  17. #156757
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors 8000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryIdjit View Post
    I don’t know whether I should use the Tsukihime thread for this question or not but in the Ciel Route true ending where Arcueid confiscated everyone in the city away, how did no one notice their own self being sucked up when Arcueid initially used Event Storage? From my understanding, Arcueid draws everything closer to her using gravity until it touches the black vortex, so was literally everyone asleep for them to not notice the gravity?

    Or do I just not know how Event Storage works?
    Event Conversion happens before Event Storage. They're converted to information first. So the experience is very much like getting instantly blinked away.

  18. #156758
    Quote Originally Posted by 8000 View Post
    Event Conversion happens before Event Storage. They're converted to information first. So the experience is very much like getting instantly blinked away.
    Does event conversion not also occur on contact with the black vortex? It was stated Ciel would be turned into a planar event upon falling into the vortex, so my assumption was that the black vortex did both Conversion and Storage upon contact.

  19. #156759
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors 8000's Avatar
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    We see it from Shiki’s perspective and it clearly does not drag physical people into it first. Seems like they get immediately turned into information and then sucked up.

  20. #156760
    Quote Originally Posted by 8000 View Post
    We see it from Shiki’s perspective and it clearly does not drag physical people into it first. Seems like they get immediately turned into information and then sucked up.
    Maybe I’m just being stubborn, but that answer feels.. weird

    Shiki was able to visually see the buildings and pavement fall into Arcueid so it’s not like those were turned into information, and it’s not stated that she treated the buildings and people differently.

    It’s more likely in my mind that everyone just happened to be asleep for the sake of the plot.

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