Nanaya already possessed physiology outside the reach of other humans. Coupled with their unique training they were essentially beasts in human form bred to be the ultimate adversary of creatures humans are hopeless against. In TM you also get +100 plot adjustment to counter common sense when you've got mountain martial arts.
Soujuurou is more of a case of regression through isolation. Because he lived closer to nature than civilization. He's also weakening the longer he gets contact with the latter.Originally Posted by aAlouda
Kuzuki was also isolation training iirc (during the grail war he is reinforced by an AoG magus). The Nanaya supposedly did the same (at least in the old lore), although they added incest on top of it to preserve their lineage's ability.
Assume Kouma also does it, but on top of that he has oni blood and buddhism so he's extra strong.
So it's not so much about becoming strong because they surpass their limits, they were "stronger" because they were not raised among plebeians who had access to modern tech. Having a daily schedule where you have to outrun wild dogs (potentially lesser phantasmal species) and punching the occasional man-eater in remote mountains just ain't the same as being too lazy to swap physical games on your PS4.
Spoiler:
Was it actually necessary for Kariya to summon Lancelot as a berserker to stand a chance?
Now that we know what Lancelot is actually like, I wonder how things would have gone if he was summoned normally by him.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Aboslutely not. It was just Zouken screwing with him for his own amusement.
Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.
you can't have 2 Sabers too.
I know somebody else already answered, but I was intrigued by the notion so I wanted to cover more. While Zerkerlot is basically the best counter to Gilgamesh, apparently he needs the stat boost from Mad Enhancement to close the gap, otherwise parameter wise he just isn't up to the task, though if you look at Saber Lancelot's stats, there isn't that huge of a gap with his luck or mana being higher than Berserker depending on source. Berserker also has much worse Magic Resistence and doesn't possess the Knight of the Lake skill which allows Saber Lancelot to effectively double any stat except luck at a given time, so along with having his rationale back, I'd argue that tactically he'd probably be better off fighting Gilgamesh like this, even if getting rolled over by Iskandar would probably hurt a heck of a lot more.
The main salient difference in their abilities is that Saber Lancelot completely lacks For Someone's Glory, so the early advantage he had in anonymity and the later tactic of pretending to be Rider when capturing Iri wouldn't fly, so Kariya would likely have been forced to use a different tact, even so, that part of the plan came from Kirei if I remember correctly, so it's likely that he wouldn't have even approached Kariya with the idea in a timeline where he summoned Saber Lancelot unless he can also be forced to adopt the Noble Phantasm through use of CS.
On a final note though, as somebody pointed out, you can't have two Sabers (Unless your name is Edelfelt) So does that mean Kiritsugu would've summoned MHX Alter as the Berserker version of Artoria? This Grail War takes a sudden, much more delicious turn if you ask me.
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Doesn't have to be Ecchan. What if Kerry just got constantly hungry Seiba?
Binged All Of Gundam In 4 Years, 1 Week and All I Got Was This Stupid Mask
FF XIV: Walked to the End
Started Legend of the Galactic Heroes (14/07/23), pray for me.
I think Saberlot actually does have For Someone's Glory but it isn't listed on his sheet for some reason. Didn't he use it during Camelot?
saber lancelot has been mediocre in his appearances so who knows. it's kinda silly gawain is treated as a much bigger threat in most situations
imo lancelot (outside of f/z) is one of the worst fate kotr depictions. fucking gareth who was genderbent still manages to be a better take
Kinda, he didn't really stand any chance, but the fate zero mats confirmed that he only performed as well as he did since lancelot had berserker stats.
The fact that he was able to endure the maddened Lancelot's outrageous magical energy consumption for as long as he did is a feat truly deserving of praise. While he might have been better off if Zouken hadn't punished him by forcing him to summon a Berserker, well… I hate to say it, but the only reason Lancelot was able to fight Gilgamesh as well as he did was due to the parameter boost from being maddened. And given the single-minded devotion with which Kariya was pursuing Tokiomi, there's no way you could expect him to have the prudence to avoid that powerhouse team and survive to the very end. When all's said and done, as long as he carried the Matou spirit of putting grudges before everything else, he was probably doomed to failure no matter what.
So since NPs can only hurt dead apostles if they are wielded by heroic spirits from the throne, does this mean heroic spirits back when they were alive and not on the throne yet wouldn't be able to scratch your average dead apostle? Also, does this protection against NPs include skill NPs like Nine Lives or only weapon NPs?
The previous war did. They make the rules to break them.
it depends on the level of myth. some HS and their NP are stronger when they were alive.
We actually have some data for this one I think. It's noted that Richard I and the Hassan of his era worked together to take out a DA during the Crusades. So I don't know about Noble Phantasms since the only one that would've existed in any fashion close to its later form would be the Hassan's Zabaniya, but it does tell us that even while human they had at least the capacity to kill a DA even if it took more work than it would have for them as Heroic Spirits.
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If you actually go into the Strange Fake dialogue where that idea came from, it is not totally about Noble Phantasms and what not.
Really the idea is that Dead Apostles are "anti-human".
To put it into RPG terms, Dead Apostles have a "Protection from Humans" buff. Anything tagged with "Human", be it spells or attacks, do 0 damage. ("Dead Apostles are snakes, and humans are frogs")
To get around this, either the weapon has to be transcendental or the attacker has to be transcendental. E.g. Heroic Spirit using a human weapon, or human using a divine weapon.
The idea is neat, but I don't think it will overturn anything.
Most Heroic Spirits are partially divine or partially monstrous. Or use some divine weapon. The pure human Heroic Spirits tend to be scrublords most of the time.
Last edited by Best Girl; June 17th, 2022 at 10:58 PM.
BRO DO YOU THINK A PUSSY-SLAYING CHAD LIKE LANCELOT WOULD TAKE ORDERS FROM VIRGIN KARIYA?
It's the only way he'd get to sleep with Aoi. Or do you expect him to just sleep with her without the forbidden "She's my master's wife" hanging over it? Not the Lancelot we know.
Binged All Of Gundam In 4 Years, 1 Week and All I Got Was This Stupid Mask
FF XIV: Walked to the End
Started Legend of the Galactic Heroes (14/07/23), pray for me.
Umm... she's Tokiomi's wife, not Kariya's.
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